https://lunarpedia.org/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=Jotagiraldez&feedformat=atomLunarpedia - User contributions [en]2024-03-29T08:39:27ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.34.2https://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Home&diff=25711Talk:Home2014-10-09T04:57:50Z<p>Jotagiraldez: </p>
<hr />
<div>==Display problems with latest versions of Chrome and Firefox==<br />
<br />
Logo and images in the front page do not display correctly in Chrome 37.0.x<br />
<br />
<br />
==Ideas for increasing Lunarpedia Contributors==<br />
*Ads in Moon Society publications?<br />
*Ads in NSS Publications such as Ad-Astra Magazine?<br />
*Ads in international space and astronomical society publications and other moon related projects?<br />
*Giving Aerospace/NewSpace companies the opportunity to write articles about themselves? (currently underway)<br />
*An article on Lunarpedia in Wikipedia?<br />
*Interview with SPACE.com?<br />
*A more eyecatching logo/banner on moon society websites?<br />
*Better placement of the logo/banner on moon society websites?<br />
*Other allowed Languages<br />
<br />
Ideas Welcome!<br />
<br />
: Note: Wikipedia does not allow adverstising, promos for Lunarpedia on Wikipedia will probably be "speedily deleted".[[User:Cfrjlr|Charles F. Radley]] 13:59, 16 March 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
------------------------------<br />
<br />
The logo on the Moon soc web site needs to be rotated so the text is horizontal.<br />
Right now it is easy to ignore by accident, as the text is difficult to read.<br />
<br />
[[User:Cfrjlr|Charles F. Radley]] 19:50, 8 January 2007 (PST)<br />
<br />
------------------------------<br />
A GIF banner concept I came up with. Same dimensions as lunarpedia logo.<br />
[[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 21:28, 8 January 2007 (PST)<br />
<br />
[[image:Lunarpedia1.GIF]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
I like the bottom one, but I think you need to move the earth so it would show as a disc and perhaps a stylized crater or two on the moon would help. The basic idea is you have to be able to recognize it as a lithograph or silhouette. --[[User:Mdelaney|MikeD]] 09:26, 12 March 2007 (GMT)<br />
:I downloaded a program that was recommended to me to try and make this image and found out it crashed my system. I may be able to fall back on a picture with no animation but ill need to be pointed in the direction of an archive of high resolution moon pictures. [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 06:47, 12 March 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
==Promotion==<br />
<br />
I've just submitted Lunarpedia and Marspedia to the DMOZ ODP.<br />
<br />
[http://www.dmoz.org/ http://www.dmoz.org/]<br />
<br />
I recommend that you also submit them in order to increase traffic and speed up the process of our links being approved. ODP also populates these to other search engines. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 10:26, 26 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Artemis Databook==<br />
Is it possible to integrate articles from the Artemis Databook (ex: [http://www.asi.org/adb/05/04/modular-architecture.html http://www.asi.org/adb/05/04/modular-architecture.html]) in to lunarpedia without licensing issues?<BR/><BR/>[[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 12:44, 10 January 2007 (PST)<br />
<br />
<br />
:No, but we need to reference it more often. Permission te release content to the public domain (merely licencing it won't work) would need to be done on an author by author basis as that's where the copyrights reside. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 18:48, 10 January 2007 (PST)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Categories==<br />
<br />
The list of categories on the Special Page for Categories [[Special:Categories]] is different (much longer) than the list of Categories of interest on the Main Page [[Main_Page]]. It will be a pain to keep them in sync. I suggest we remove the list of categories from the main page, and put in a link to the Special Page instead. [[User:Cfrjlr|Charles F. Radley]] 05:40, 26 January 2007 (PST)<br />
:Maybe. I don't see it as a long term solution to use maintainer tools for casual users, however. What if we created a small number of supercategories and made sure that all content articles (pure disposable list articles and other overhead need not apply) were placed in at least one of them? Part of my concern about the maintenance tools is that in presents the user with a lot of stuff that is not of direct interest to them coequal or above (by virtue of alphabetization) articles of far greater relevance to someone seeking actual content. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 06:47, 26 January 2007 (PST)<br />
<br />
Is there an automated way of generating a list of only all categories which have content, and hiding the stub categories? [[User:Cfrjlr|Charles F. Radley]] 06:57, 26 January 2007 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Advertising is OK ==<br />
<br />
This needs to be reworded, the word "advertising" is what I have an issue with. The general sense of the paragraph doesn't worry me, just that word. -- [[User:Mdelaney|MikeD]] 09:18, 12 March 2007 (GMT)<br />
<br />
:Promotion? -- [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 06:38, 12 March 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Sidebar ==<br />
<br />
I'd like to know what I can remove from the sidebar without causing undue hardship, it's currently a complete and utter shambles.<br />
<br />
Items I think can be removed are:<br><br />
Under '''Navigation''':<br><br />
*Category List A-Z<br><br />
*Complex Search<br><br />
<br />
Under '''Maintenance''':<br><br />
Everything<br />
<br />
We could move the Maintenance links to a Maintenance page.<br />
<br />
-- [[User:Mdelaney|Mdelaney]] 14:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:At a minimum, we may want to have the regolith box and a link to regularly needed maintenance functions, possibly added to the navigation menu. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 17:41, 15 April 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: The maintenance links could be pushed into the Community portal. [[User:Cfrjlr|Charles F. Radley]] 21:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I don't favor leaving the maintenance links in the sidebar at all, they're visible to guest users and present a cluttered appearance. If this was Joomla I'd make them visible to sysops only, but it's not. I'm not sure if we can easily implement group permissions in the sidebar. -- [[User:Mdelaney|Mdelaney]] 22:26, 15 April 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Most of them aren't sysop specific, but things any serious contributor could stand to have easily accessible, especially ones inclined to help with the tedious tasks we've mostly been neglecting. As far as the Community Portal goes, we never really used it -- we might move all of its contents elsewhere and delete it or replace it with a redirect. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 01:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Ok, here's a suggestion, how about we thin the sidebar out a bit, and rename some of the links so users have some inkling what they're about.<br />
<br />
::::For example, "List of lists of needed articles" never made sense to me, Peter's Outline probably belongs further up in the Navigation menu. Are there other words we can use in place of Uncategorized or Undescribed? -- [[User:Mdelaney|Mdelaney]] 02:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::Feel free to think of a better name for the List of Lists, but we've gotten far more mileage out of that than Peter's outline. It would be nice for it to be no more than two easily reached clicks away, along with a lot of other things in that menu, most of which are already inconveniently accessible from the special pages menu (so if they,'re going to end up less convenient than they are from there, their continued grouping becomes less optimal -- and if the special pages menu becomes trivially reachable again, the main problem will again be finding them in the alphabetized list -- okay, maybe more clicks is still worth it for some of them) -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 14:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::Did you just argue against yourself and win? -- [[User:Mdelaney|Mdelaney]] 21:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I've added the banner section to the lower left side bar. I will be talking with Eric Douglas of the [http://amlunsoc.org American Lunar Society] to see if he wants a banner there since he put our link on the amlunsoc.org frontpage. I will attempt to pursue other link exchanges with groups such as FOGE and LPOD. Still gotta bug marsdrive to tie up a banner loose end on marspedia. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 15:47, 4 August 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Which way to the Moon? ==<br />
<br />
Hello,<br />
I'm a volunteer of the registered Google Lunar X PRIZE contestant Team FREDNET, an open source project to land a rover on the Moon. Development of our lunar mission requires a good deal of research, and I was wondering if you Lunarpedians might be interested in lending us a hand, given our similar spirits of openness and common interest in lunar missions? If you're interested, I could add requests for information from our team somewhere here, so you could contribute any knowledge you may have or are able to find on the subject, and then let us apply it to our mission? The kind of knowledge we're in need of should also have general applicability to Lunarpedia. --[[User:Anders Feder|Anders Feder]] 02:35, 20 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
:I've brought this to the attention of the other Lunarpedia bigwigs, so we'll let it stew among our Evil Overlords and let you know. Meanwhile, I've added you to my [http://thatnextbigthing.blogspot.com/ blogroll]. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 09:24, 20 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
:: Great, thanks :) --[[User:Anders Feder|Anders Feder]] 23:42, 20 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::By the way, sorry about the delay. Christmas kills me. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 10:31, 26 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::Had a chat with the admins and they also like the idea. We would like to receive some kind of courtesy attribution (links) for the open content we provide. Also, as an open reference we would like this to be non-exclusive so that other groups could request info under similar agreements. Articles can be requested [[Talk:Team_FREDNET|HERE]] on the Team FREDNET discussion page (brand new, since I just made the article). Also, you can edit the FREDNET article to fill in info about the team if you like. We look forward to working with you! - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 22:50, 26 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
'''Gentlemen, what do you think about Anders' proposal?''' I like the idea! - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 10:29, 26 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Apologies for my own delay in responding. I believe this is precisely the sort of the Lunarpedia and the Moon Society are for. How should we handle the page for information requests to be added? Perhaps simply with bulleted points and <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> signatures? We also need a FREDNET article. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 15:58, 26 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
::It might be prudent to do this as a subpage of either MAIN or FREDNET. - [[User:Jarogers2001|Jarogers2001]] 16:01, 26 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
:: Hello again everyone - sounds great. I'm at my parent's place at the moment, so I am a little restricted computer-wise. I'll add the first few requests to the Team FREDNET talk page as soon as I get back home. Also, if you can think of other ways we may be able to cooperate, please don't hesitate to suggest them. --[[User:Anders Feder|Anders Feder]] 07:34, 30 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
:: I've added the first few requests for assistance to our [[Talk:Team_FREDNET|talk page]]. Hope you can help us out. Cheers. --[[User:Anders Feder|Anders Feder]] 14:30, 3 January 2009 (UTC)</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Jose_Giraldez&diff=25709Jose Giraldez2014-09-22T19:26:46Z<p>Jotagiraldez: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{Biog Stub}}<br />
Manufacturing Engineer, Brigham Young University, Utah. <br />
Lunar Enthusiast.<br />
<br />
[[File:Jotagiraldez.jpg|right|thumb|Jose Giraldez]]<br />
<br />
<br />
== Published Articles ==<br />
<br />
* [[Lunar Aluminium Production]]<br />
* [[Lunar Settlement Artificial Atmosphere]]<br />
* [[Hydroponics]]<br />
* [[Public Domain]]<br />
* [[Lunar Settlement]]<br />
*[[Lunar Life Support Parameters]]<br />
<br />
== Other Contributions ==<br />
<br />
* [[Transparent Aluminum]]<br />
* [[Aluminium Shielding]]<br />
* [[Microwaves ]]<br />
* [[Scientifiction]]</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Jose_Giraldez&diff=25708Jose Giraldez2014-09-22T19:26:09Z<p>Jotagiraldez: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{Biog Stub}}<br />
Manufacturing Engineer, Brigham Young University, Utah. 26 Year-old NERD and Lunar Enthusiast.<br />
<br />
[[File:Jotagiraldez.jpg|right|thumb|Jose Giraldez]]<br />
<br />
<br />
== Published Articles ==<br />
<br />
* [[Lunar Aluminium Production]]<br />
* [[Lunar Settlement Artificial Atmosphere]]<br />
* [[Hydroponics]]<br />
* [[Public Domain]]<br />
* [[Lunar Settlement]]<br />
*[[Lunar Life Support Parameters]]<br />
<br />
== Other Contributions ==<br />
<br />
* [[Transparent Aluminum]]<br />
* [[Aluminium Shielding]]<br />
* [[Microwaves ]]<br />
* [[Scientifiction]]</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Jose_Giraldez&diff=24212Jose Giraldez2013-03-13T15:20:38Z<p>Jotagiraldez: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{Biog Stub}}<br />
Industrial Engineer Senior, University of Lima, Peru. LDS Church ex-missionary and a Manufacturing Engineer Senior, Brigham Young University, Utah. 24 Year-old NERD and Lunar Enthusiast.<br />
<br />
[[File:Jotagiraldez.jpg|right|thumb|Jose Giraldez]]<br />
<br />
<br />
== Published Articles ==<br />
<br />
* [[Lunar Aluminium Production]]<br />
* [[Lunar Settlement Artificial Atmosphere]]<br />
* [[Hydroponics]]<br />
* [[Public Domain]]<br />
* [[Lunar Settlement]]<br />
*[[Lunar Life Support Parameters]]<br />
<br />
== Other Contributions ==<br />
<br />
* [[Transparent Aluminum]]<br />
* [[Aluminium Shielding]]<br />
* [[Microwaves ]]<br />
* [[Scientifiction]]</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Virtual_Reality_And_Videogames&diff=18269Virtual Reality And Videogames2012-07-09T08:59:35Z<p>Jotagiraldez: </p>
<hr />
<div>The amount of computing power used on videogames will depend on the circumstances at the beginning of the [[Lunar Settlement]] and the amount of computers brought to the moon, where videogames could be used with the spare computing power. The manufacture of computers might start in the medium-later stages of the settlement, then, limiting the amount of computer resources used for entertainment. However, if the computing power is allocated on Earth, then the amount of resources used for entertainment will depend on the bandwidth and the speed of the link.<br />
<br />
Currently there is people on Earth that spend long times on virtual reality environments and videogames. Therefore, it is viable to use this tools as means of leisure and entertainment for the lunar settlers.<br />
<br />
{{Stub}}<br />
[[Category:Recreation]]</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Industrial_Mechanisms&diff=17946Talk:Industrial Mechanisms2012-06-04T00:26:00Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* How machines will be different on Luna */</p>
<hr />
<div>If we could develop a good lunar mortar our lunar settlement could be built, largely by robots, from the most common lunar material available, rocks. Such buildings would provide radiation and meteor protection, and would stabilize the temperature inside.<br />
<br />
This invention would also put the like to every SF book and movie ever made. It would redefine the look of people in space forever.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Jriley|Jriley]] 13:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:Can you think of a way to do it with concrete? There's one or two concrete solutions that I'm aware of, one with sulfur and one that the [[Lunar University]] program awarded [[TD Lin]] for developing at this year's ISDC. Note that TD Lin's low hydrogen concrete cures really quickly...<br />
<br />
:-- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 18:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Do you have good links? I would like to add them to the text.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Jriley|Jriley]] 14:00, 23 July 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== More on Cement ==<br />
<br />
I added more information on cement. I certainly think we can come up with a lunar substitute using chemical by-products from the volatiles harvester and screened regolith in some specific size range. I do not currently have a formula to test, but extensive Earth testing will be needed.<br />
<br />
Imagine what effect a good mortar would have on our lunar settlement.<br />
<br />
In the current plan, the first thing built is an all-purpose station. This multi-room building is now shown as metal cylinders. Its walls will not have enough mass to shield the occupants from radiation, especially in solar storms. Long term occupancy is '''not''' safe.<br />
<br />
We can dig the station into the regolith and cover it with at least 2 meters of that material. This would take a lot of work and heavy equipment (see [[Architecture as Mole Hills]]).<br />
<br />
Or, if we have a good lunar mortar, we could have robots slowly encase the operating station in a stone wall a meter thick. The doors would need arched walkways leading to them. The few windows would be set deep in the stone wall. The wall would arch over the top to form a roof.<br />
<br />
This is a lunar station as a castle or a Roman villa. I have never seen such a thing in any SF story, ever.<small>The above comments were posted by</small> Jriley at 14:00 on the 23rd of July 2007. <br />
<br />
==How machines will be different on Luna== <br />
The lathe you write about could work the same way as a Lathe on Earth if it is used inside a pressurized environment. This seems to me to be a reasonable restriction even if it is operated completely by remote control. A compartment could be pressurized with hydrogen or argon and house a setup for machining alloys of sodium, calcium, and magnesium. Compounds of these metals are available on Luna and might be easier to smelt than aluminium. <br />
<br />
You refer to CNC for EDM, but Lathes used in mass production on Earth are CNC devices too. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 06:57, 21 May 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:The only thing that would be different in a 0 atm lathe would be the heat dissipation ratio. There are different methods of cooling that can be adapted to no atmosphere (i.e. running an pressurised cold liquid inside the piece. Also, no atmosphere would require only level 1 cuts... This would prevent cold welding. Yes, there are CNC lathes (and yes, they are used in mass production)<br />
<br />
:Regarding a remote control facility... What is the minimum machinery that has to be present? What we have to send?<br />
<br />
:The order of machinery can be summarized in: "Send the tools to build a machine that can build tools, even to build better tools that build tools" Then, we ask... as David Dieztler did: What to send first?<br />
<br />
:David said a power source, perhaps a nuclear power source. Then, the means to gather and smelt metals. Then, a machining tool... even to build a better power source... or better smelters or better machining tools.<br />
<br />
:This article will be one of the most important articles in Lunarpedia.--[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 00:26, 4 June 2012 (UTC)</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Jose_Giraldez&diff=17919Talk:Jose Giraldez2012-06-02T23:06:44Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Is it spam? */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hello Jotagiraldez, <br />
<br />
On the 27th of October I modified you addition to the [[Moon colony]] article. I removed the footnote numbers that were copied from the Wikipedia Article and added the references from that article where they were still working references. I am unsure whether copying article sections from Wikipedia is a customarily accepted practice, but if you do copy sections, I think it is better to copy them with the references rather than just the unwikified footnotes. Naturally you should not copy sections from websites that enforce copyright exclusivity. <br />
<br />
Thank you for your efforts. I hope you enjoy contributing to Lunarpedia. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 15:24, 30 October 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== User Jotagiraldez apparently likes British English == <br />
I noticed the changes from American spelling to British spelling in the Aluminum article. So what is the big idea? Do you think that British English is better than American English? Do you feel insulted or unappreciated and this is your way of retaliating? What is on your mind? Why did you put a Spanish language abbreviation for the United States of America in an English language web site? The country is abbreviated USA in English speaking countries. I hope we can cooperate amicably with one another. -- [[User:Farred|Farred]] 18:47, 9 November 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== IUPAC ==<br />
<br />
Aluminium is the international nomenclature and the one that figures and is used by IUPAC. And the approved one.<br />
<br />
I checked in the IUPAC because I was not sure about Aluminum or Aluminium. I really do not care which one American's are using but since Aluminium is the one that figures in the IUPAC I would defend Aluminium over Aluminum.<br />
<br />
Also I would defend Metric system. And Celsius over Fahrenheit.<br />
<br />
English is for me a tool. I am still learning. I didn't meant to offend you or something. Sorry about EEUU, I'm not very good in writing. I do not feel underestimated.<br />
<br />
I do not think England has to do anything with this. I have English and American friends and I do not prefer one over another. --[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jotagiraldez]] 19:22, 9 November 2010 (UTC) <br />
<br />
== The spelling of aluminium == <br />
Jotagiraldez, you seem very productive and talented but one thing I would disagree with is the spelling of aluminum being changed to aluminium, the British variant that my spell checker flags as an error. I give an argument for the old spelling on the [[Talk:Aluminium]] page if you care to look. You claim IUPAC favors aluminium, but you gave no source so I cannot check the nature of their support. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 02:39, 10 November 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Aluminium/aluminum ==<br />
<br />
I really do not know what to do. You are convincing. Lets wait to see what happens... Perhaps the users are going to change everything to aluminum... The community will decide.<br />
<br />
:Jotagiraldez:<br />
:I agree with your suggestion of the 10th of November that we should wait and see what the community decides about the spelling of aluminum, but if no one other than we two is concerned enough to comment, let's go with aluminium. You seem to prefer it and have some basis for preferring it. Besides, having someone who is actually competent to make constructive edits visit this web site is a rare and valuable thing. You are more valuable than spelling aluminum one way or another. I do not think either North Americans or those from the rest of the world will be sufficiently put off by a non favored spelling of aluminum that they will fail to gather valuable information from Lunarpedia. I hope we can actually have enough worthwhile information here, mixed into the dross that is already here, so that we can further the goal of making mankind a spacefaring species. I count on readers being smart enough to judge what is valuable and suitable to their purposes, so l let a few things remain here that I would not have contributed. Meanwhile, any improvements you can make are welcome. Any questions you might have I will make an effort to answer. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 23:29, 11 November 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Thanks for update on Luanr Settlement ==<br />
<br />
Thank you for the updates on the "Lunar Settlement" entry.<br />
<br />
I am currently working to update the short stories based on this settlement to reflect the new lunar data.<br />
<br />
I am also working to build a progressive argument for lunar settlement. The approach cutoff last fall, Constellation, was very conservative and we did nothing to make the idea attractive to the new administration so of course they canceled it.<br />
<br />
Please let me know if any of these ideas are of interest to you.<br />
<br />
Thanks,<br />
<br />
--[[Special:Contributions/207.114.25.104|207.114.25.104]] 22:10, 13 November 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Thanks for the heads-up about a deletable article== <br />
:Hi Jose, <br />
There are some plenty strange folks out there who vandalize Lunarpedia. I do not see how any money could result from that spam article about Limos. At least it is good to know there is someone who actually cares a bit about Lunarpedia. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 02:50, 9 December 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Spammers are parasites.== <br />
Thanks for starting the heart monitor article. However there is something that you should keep in mind. <br />
<br />
Spammers are the parasites of the internet. They post irrelevant messages on wikis where they are not wanted. They do so with automated programs that can post thousands of copies of their garbage link backs. They poison search engines so that their mechanically created irrelevant sites are displayed instead of what the user of the search engine is looking for. We are at war with the spammers. Please do not do anything to help them or their employers. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 16:13, 8 May 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Is it spam?== <br />
I was unsure of the contributions of User:EddyoucylleqjkvjsedlgedsfpudnddndcydppzGrboyan. See [[User talk:EddyoucylleqjkvjsedlgedsfpudnddndcydppzGrboyan|the talk page]]. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:21, 2 June 2012 (UTC)<br />
:Yes, it is spam.--[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 23:06, 2 June 2012 (UTC)</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=User_talk:EddyoucylleqjkvjsedlgedsfpudnddndcydppzGrboyan&diff=17918User talk:EddyoucylleqjkvjsedlgedsfpudnddndcydppzGrboyan2012-06-02T23:06:14Z<p>Jotagiraldez: </p>
<hr />
<div>==Is it spam?==<br />
I consider the [http://www.lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/EddyoucylleqjkvjsedlgedsfpudnddndcydppzGrboyan contributions] of user:EddyoucylleqjkvjsedlgedsfpudnddndcydppzGrboyan to be spam but I wanted to check with others before deleting them as such. Instructions in how to get to USENET might be suitable content but the advertisement of the particular provider does not seem to me to be what we should accept. If I get no response on this in a couple of days I will block the user and delete the contributions. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:00, 2 June 2012 (UTC)<br />
:I could say about the same for USER:ClydedwvhekqvehxdlpriyazlhirmglstdenxbazSaro, but I have already deleted the article as off topic. I do not know if it justifies a block, but I doubt the block would be necessary because this sort of user is usually an account used only once. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:36, 2 June 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Yes, Spam!==<br />
It is advertisment for a Usenet forums. Please delete these 3 contributions.--[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 23:06, 2 June 2012 (UTC)</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=User_talk:EddyoucylleqjkvjsedlgedsfpudnddndcydppzGrboyan&diff=17917User talk:EddyoucylleqjkvjsedlgedsfpudnddndcydppzGrboyan2012-06-02T23:05:53Z<p>Jotagiraldez: </p>
<hr />
<div>==Is it spam?==<br />
I consider the [http://www.lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/EddyoucylleqjkvjsedlgedsfpudnddndcydppzGrboyan contributions] of user:EddyoucylleqjkvjsedlgedsfpudnddndcydppzGrboyan to be spam but I wanted to check with others before deleting them as such. Instructions in how to get to USENET might be suitable content but the advertisement of the particular provider does not seem to me to be what we should accept. If I get no response on this in a couple of days I will block the user and delete the contributions. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:00, 2 June 2012 (UTC)<br />
:I could say about the same for USER:ClydedwvhekqvehxdlpriyazlhirmglstdenxbazSaro, but I have already deleted the article as off topic. I do not know if it justifies a block, but I doubt the block would be necessary because this sort of user is usually an account used only once. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:36, 2 June 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Yes, Spam!<br />
It is advertisment for a Usenet forums. Please delete these 3 contributions.</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Industrial_Mechanisms&diff=17843Industrial Mechanisms2012-05-21T03:33:23Z<p>Jotagiraldez: Fixing headline</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Sandworm06.jpg|frame|Gear pump to regolith seal]]<br />
<br />
<BR clear="all"/><br />
<br />
{|align=right<br />
|__TOC__<br />
|}<br />
<br />
<font size=5> Industrial Mechanisms <BR> Needed on the Moon </font><br />
<br />
If you tour any construction site or factory on Earth you will see a number of basic industrial mechanisms that are at the foundation of all processes. We must design lunar versions of these mechanisms if we are to build a successful settlement on the [[Moon]]. The harsh lunar environment makes many of these very challenging designs.<br />
<br />
<br />
==Environmental Factors==<br />
<br />
The factors making machine design difficult in the lunar environment include:<br />
<br />
* [[Dust]]<br />
* Harsh UV sunlight<br />
* Temperature extremes<br />
* [[Radiation Problem]]<br />
* No air<br />
* Electrostatics<br />
<br />
The familiarity of the Earth versions coupled with the harshness of the lunar environment make many of these redesigns excellent student projects. They are also a fertile field for entrepreneurs.<br />
<br />
==Mechanisms List==<br />
<br />
The following list covers basic mechanisms found in Earth industry that we must have for commercial operations on the Moon:<br />
<br />
===Rotary Seal===<br />
<br />
This is the seal on a spinning shaft such as a motor. It keeps dirt out of the bearings and the lubrication in. It must be flexible yet stand up in a long life of riding against a spinning shaft.<br />
<br />
On Earth, these seals are made from rubber and plastic compounds and are highly successful in a wide range of environments.<br />
<br />
On the Moon, the big challenges include the gritty dust and the lack of an atmosphere. This adaptation should not be too challenging but a great many materials may need to be tested in realistic lunar conditions.<br />
<br />
===Linear Seal===<br />
<br />
These seals must slide across a polished metal rod as in hydraulic pistons. Look around an Earth construction site and you will see these pistons everywhere. These shafts move in and out exposing their surfaces first to the internal hydraulic oil and then to the local environment. The seals must hold in the significant pressure while withstanding the ware of sliding.<br />
<br />
On Earth, these seals are made from rubber and plastic compounds and, again, are highly successful in a wide range of environments. The gas shocks in modern cars are one good example.<br />
<br />
On the Moon, this design problem is a project killer that must be solved. The lunar dust is highly abrasive. The film of oil left on the rod will probably hold the fine dust. The seals must push this mix out of the way or withstand this extremely abrasive paste for a very long time. A blow out of the oil would be a major break down and could be life threatening.<br />
<br />
Linear seals are one of the design challenges for commercialization of the Moon.<br />
<br />
Hydraulic pistons can be lubricated to maintain a linear seal by encasing the entire length of the hydraulic piston in accordion-fold type sleeve that holds a pound per square inch or so of gas pressure around the hydraulic piston so the lubricant does not evaporate. The same can not be done for the rotary bearings of wheels. A thin foil accordion-fold micrometeor shield can in turn protect the pressure retention sleeve. The dual sleeves around the hydraulic pistons would also keep dust away from the polished metal rod. This is the sort of solution that is referred to in [[Robots in Space Suits]].<br />
<br />
===Wire Rope Systems===<br />
<br />
Wire rope systems with there wenches, pulleys, and hooks, are one of the most useful devices in Earth industry. They are very widely used despite their inherent dangers. These systems are notorious for crushing off fingers and delivering slashing wounds when broken cable ends fly.<br />
<br />
On the Moon, wire rope systems will have difficulty surviving in the dusty environment, but the chief design challenge is the danger they pose to a person working in a spacesuit. <br />
<br />
This problem will be addressed by having all wire rope work in a vacuum environment done by remotely controlled machines.<br />
<br />
===Conveyor Belt===<br />
<br />
The conveyor belt is the foundation mechanism of mass production. They move stuff. Typically they contain a large number of moving parts and joints. They are driven at one location and many have many support wheels and rollers along their length.<br />
<br />
On the Moon, the primary challenge is wear from the dust.<br />
<br />
A conveyor belt designed for lunar vacuum use can be a train of slats supported at their ends by magnetic suspension in tracks and a belt of fiber-glass riding on the slats. Electronic controls are needed for the magnetic suspension, a control unit at both ends of each slat. The tracks can be roughly U shaped channels that are swept clean of dust continuously by fiber-glass brushes. The belt and brushes would be expendable items.<br />
<br />
===Lathe===<br />
The production of parts out of solid blocks of different types of steel would require a lathe. This lathe would work the same way than on Earth and will become the first machining tool. It is possible to build complex machines with a lathe. It is the corner stone of the manufacturing establishment it is the tool to build tools and to build the machines that build machines.<br />
<br />
===Electrical Discharge Machining===<br />
EDM technology has been used on Earth to manufacture small metal parts that can no be mass produced with lathes or other metal cutting technologies.<br />
<br />
Metal, in blocks or sheets, are placed between two electrodes and a current is passed to remove material.<br />
<br />
EDM is expensive on Earth, it requires a complex instructions set to be programmed in a [[CNC]] language.<br />
<br />
===Tire===<br />
<br />
Moving around a lunar settlement will not require vehicles with wheels. Wheels must have tires of some sort. The ability to negotiate lunar slopes will be a major factor in lunar transportation. Good tires on wheels can be used for transversing these slopes, but there are other options. <br />
<br />
On Earth, tires are universally made from synthetic rubber and inflated with air. This design is completely unsatisfactory for the lunar environment. <br />
<br />
On the Moon, the Apollo rover tires were made from metal mesh and worked reasonably well. They did however throw up a lot of dust and were never pushed onto steep slopes. Wheels designed for lunar vacuum use have so far been of rather limited design lifetime. The challenge of producing wheeled vehicles for ten years of industrial use might be successfully accomplished but legged vehicles could serve. Vehicles on the moon that walk on legs do not need rotary seals and the linear seals that they need can be satisfactorily produced (see [[Industrial Mechanisms#Linear Seal|above]]).<br />
<br />
===Caterpillar Tread===<br />
<br />
The Caterpillar or tank tread is used extensively in construction and mining on Earth to allow heavy equipment to move across open grown. They are massive and contain a very large number of joints and bearings.<br />
<br />
Treads can be a difficult maintenance problem in dusty environments. One of Field Marshal Romel's great innovations in the WWII North Africa campaign was to load his tanks onto trucks for long hauls. This greatly reduced the break down rate of the treads.<br />
<br />
On the Moon, the dust will be a severe challenge for treads. It will simply wear them out. The mass of most tread designs is also a problem as long as that mass has to be shipped from Earth.<br />
<br />
One solution is to not use tank treads on Luna but to use legged vehicles in their place. Legged vehicles do not need a rotary seal which has been a problem on the moon but use linear seals in hydraulic pistons in their legs. A method of designing such seals is available (see [[Industrial Mechanisms#Linear Seal|above]]). Computerized means of controling legged vehicles have also been developed in recent years. <br />
<br />
===Power Distribution Cable===<br />
<br />
Lunar power generation stations, solar or nuclear, will need to be separated from both living areas and commercial operations. Distance is needed both for safety and to avoid the dust kicked up by human activity. Also the optimal site location for one activity is rarely the optimum location for another.<br />
<br />
We will need a way to efficiently send electrical power over at least a few kilometers. This must be done safely and with a minimum of mass shipped from Earth.<br />
<br />
===Cement===<br />
<small>See also [[Structural Engineering]]</small><br />
<br />
How can we build a settlement without good cement? Both in the form of concrete and as mortar, it is the universal construction material on Earth.<br />
<br />
Cement is a good example of a process we depend on on Earth that must be modified for the Moon. On Earth we heat limestone driving off the water to make slaked lime. We add a stabilizing mineral. The Romans used volcanic ash; we use gypsum. We mix this cement with sand to make mortar or with crushed rock to make concrete.<br />
<br />
The cement has the amazing property when mixed with water, it sticks to rock or brick and becomes stone hard. The water does not evaporate or dry. The water reacts chemically with the lime and remains. Every drop put in the wet mix is present in the finished product. This cannot happen in a vacuum.<br />
<br />
The finished product has great compressive strength but little tensile strength. Fortunately when iron bars, which have great tensile strength, are placed inside concrete, the cement coating both bonds strongly and protects the iron from rust. <br />
<br />
On Earth, most of the minerals used to make cement are associated with water in some way. Limestone is laid down by living organisms at the bottom of shallow seas. Gypsum forms when an inland sea dries up. There is no water on the Moon and there never has been. No minerals of this type can be expected.<br />
<br />
The Moon is cover with ground up rock and we will produce a number of interesting by-products when we harvest [[volatiles]] from it. We need to find a way to convert some of that particulate mater and some of those chemicals into a solid construction material. We need to do this with as little mass shipped from Earth as possible.<br />
<br />
Steel rebar will be hard to manufacture on the Moon. On Earth it is made by recycling old cars. We may be able to make [[fiberglass]] on the Moon and use it to reinforce the cement. <br />
<br />
With a decent mortar, rough stone masonry could become the defining architectural element of our lunar settlement (see [[Architecture in Field Stone]]). There is certainly no shortage of rocks.<br />
<br />
===Glue & Sealants===<br />
<br />
Outside on the Moon, we need to be able to glue things together and to seal leaky enclosures. This ability is life-or-death. <br />
<br />
===Color in Architecture===<br />
<br />
The Moon is gray. Asphalt parking lot gray. Monotonous, boring gray. We need to add color. We need bright colored [[paint]]. The bulk of the paint must come from lunar materials.<br />
<br />
===Your Idea Here===<br />
On the Moon: Lots of [[oxygen]], lots of [[titanium]]. [[Titanium dioxide]]. I dont know how it would be made into paint, but maybe if mixed into sinteered regolith it could be used to make it white. If we paint habitats garish colours, we might just drvie the colonists insane! [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 08:21, 11 August 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Industrial Production]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Robots]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Student Projects]]</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Industrial_Mechanisms&diff=17842Industrial Mechanisms2012-05-21T03:32:14Z<p>Jotagiraldez: </p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Sandworm06.jpg|frame|Gear pump to regolith seal]]<br />
<br />
<BR clear="all"/><br />
<br />
{|align=right<br />
|__TOC__<br />
|}<br />
<br />
<font size=5> Industrial Mechanisms <BR> Needed on the Moon </font><br />
<br />
If you tour any construction site or factory on Earth you will see a number of basic industrial mechanisms that are at the foundation of all processes. We must design lunar versions of these mechanisms if we are to build a successful settlement on the [[Moon]]. The harsh lunar environment makes many of these very challenging designs.<br />
<br />
<br />
==Environmental Factors==<br />
<br />
The factors making machine design difficult in the lunar environment include:<br />
<br />
* [[Dust]]<br />
* Harsh UV sunlight<br />
* Temperature extremes<br />
* [[Radiation Problem]]<br />
* No air<br />
* Electrostatics<br />
<br />
The familiarity of the Earth versions coupled with the harshness of the lunar environment make many of these redesigns excellent student projects. They are also a fertile field for entrepreneurs.<br />
<br />
==Mechanisms List==<br />
<br />
The following list covers basic mechanisms found in Earth industry that we must have for commercial operations on the Moon:<br />
<br />
===Rotary Seal===<br />
<br />
This is the seal on a spinning shaft such as a motor. It keeps dirt out of the bearings and the lubrication in. It must be flexible yet stand up in a long life of riding against a spinning shaft.<br />
<br />
On Earth, these seals are made from rubber and plastic compounds and are highly successful in a wide range of environments.<br />
<br />
On the Moon, the big challenges include the gritty dust and the lack of an atmosphere. This adaptation should not be too challenging but a great many materials may need to be tested in realistic lunar conditions.<br />
<br />
===Linear Seal===<br />
<br />
These seals must slide across a polished metal rod as in hydraulic pistons. Look around an Earth construction site and you will see these pistons everywhere. These shafts move in and out exposing their surfaces first to the internal hydraulic oil and then to the local environment. The seals must hold in the significant pressure while withstanding the ware of sliding.<br />
<br />
On Earth, these seals are made from rubber and plastic compounds and, again, are highly successful in a wide range of environments. The gas shocks in modern cars are one good example.<br />
<br />
On the Moon, this design problem is a project killer that must be solved. The lunar dust is highly abrasive. The film of oil left on the rod will probably hold the fine dust. The seals must push this mix out of the way or withstand this extremely abrasive paste for a very long time. A blow out of the oil would be a major break down and could be life threatening.<br />
<br />
Linear seals are one of the design challenges for commercialization of the Moon.<br />
<br />
Hydraulic pistons can be lubricated to maintain a linear seal by encasing the entire length of the hydraulic piston in accordion-fold type sleeve that holds a pound per square inch or so of gas pressure around the hydraulic piston so the lubricant does not evaporate. The same can not be done for the rotary bearings of wheels. A thin foil accordion-fold micrometeor shield can in turn protect the pressure retention sleeve. The dual sleeves around the hydraulic pistons would also keep dust away from the polished metal rod. This is the sort of solution that is referred to in [[Robots in Space Suits]].<br />
<br />
===Wire Rope Systems===<br />
<br />
Wire rope systems with there wenches, pulleys, and hooks, are one of the most useful devices in Earth industry. They are very widely used despite their inherent dangers. These systems are notorious for crushing off fingers and delivering slashing wounds when broken cable ends fly.<br />
<br />
On the Moon, wire rope systems will have difficulty surviving in the dusty environment, but the chief design challenge is the danger they pose to a person working in a spacesuit. <br />
<br />
This problem will be addressed by having all wire rope work in a vacuum environment done by remotely controlled machines.<br />
<br />
===Conveyor Belt===<br />
<br />
The conveyor belt is the foundation mechanism of mass production. They move stuff. Typically they contain a large number of moving parts and joints. They are driven at one location and many have many support wheels and rollers along their length.<br />
<br />
On the Moon, the primary challenge is wear from the dust.<br />
<br />
A conveyor belt designed for lunar vacuum use can be a train of slats supported at their ends by magnetic suspension in tracks and a belt of fiber-glass riding on the slats. Electronic controls are needed for the magnetic suspension, a control unit at both ends of each slat. The tracks can be roughly U shaped channels that are swept clean of dust continuously by fiber-glass brushes. The belt and brushes would be expendable items.<br />
<br />
==Lathe==<br />
The production of parts out of solid blocks of different types of steel would require a lathe. This lathe would work the same way than on Earth and will become the first machining tool. It is possible to build complex machines with a lathe. It is the corner stone of the manufacturing establishment it is the tool to build tools and to build the machines that build machines.<br />
<br />
==Electrical Discharge Machining==<br />
EDM technology has been used on Earth to manufacture small metal parts that can no be mass produced with lathes or other metal cutting technologies.<br />
<br />
Metal, in blocks or sheets, are placed between two electrodes and a current is passed to remove material.<br />
<br />
EDM is expensive on Earth, it requires a complex instructions set to be programmed in a [[CNC]] language.<br />
<br />
===Tire===<br />
<br />
Moving around a lunar settlement will not require vehicles with wheels. Wheels must have tires of some sort. The ability to negotiate lunar slopes will be a major factor in lunar transportation. Good tires on wheels can be used for transversing these slopes, but there are other options. <br />
<br />
On Earth, tires are universally made from synthetic rubber and inflated with air. This design is completely unsatisfactory for the lunar environment. <br />
<br />
On the Moon, the Apollo rover tires were made from metal mesh and worked reasonably well. They did however throw up a lot of dust and were never pushed onto steep slopes. Wheels designed for lunar vacuum use have so far been of rather limited design lifetime. The challenge of producing wheeled vehicles for ten years of industrial use might be successfully accomplished but legged vehicles could serve. Vehicles on the moon that walk on legs do not need rotary seals and the linear seals that they need can be satisfactorily produced (see [[Industrial Mechanisms#Linear Seal|above]]).<br />
<br />
===Caterpillar Tread===<br />
<br />
The Caterpillar or tank tread is used extensively in construction and mining on Earth to allow heavy equipment to move across open grown. They are massive and contain a very large number of joints and bearings.<br />
<br />
Treads can be a difficult maintenance problem in dusty environments. One of Field Marshal Romel's great innovations in the WWII North Africa campaign was to load his tanks onto trucks for long hauls. This greatly reduced the break down rate of the treads.<br />
<br />
On the Moon, the dust will be a severe challenge for treads. It will simply wear them out. The mass of most tread designs is also a problem as long as that mass has to be shipped from Earth.<br />
<br />
One solution is to not use tank treads on Luna but to use legged vehicles in their place. Legged vehicles do not need a rotary seal which has been a problem on the moon but use linear seals in hydraulic pistons in their legs. A method of designing such seals is available (see [[Industrial Mechanisms#Linear Seal|above]]). Computerized means of controling legged vehicles have also been developed in recent years. <br />
<br />
===Power Distribution Cable===<br />
<br />
Lunar power generation stations, solar or nuclear, will need to be separated from both living areas and commercial operations. Distance is needed both for safety and to avoid the dust kicked up by human activity. Also the optimal site location for one activity is rarely the optimum location for another.<br />
<br />
We will need a way to efficiently send electrical power over at least a few kilometers. This must be done safely and with a minimum of mass shipped from Earth.<br />
<br />
===Cement===<br />
<small>See also [[Structural Engineering]]</small><br />
<br />
How can we build a settlement without good cement? Both in the form of concrete and as mortar, it is the universal construction material on Earth.<br />
<br />
Cement is a good example of a process we depend on on Earth that must be modified for the Moon. On Earth we heat limestone driving off the water to make slaked lime. We add a stabilizing mineral. The Romans used volcanic ash; we use gypsum. We mix this cement with sand to make mortar or with crushed rock to make concrete.<br />
<br />
The cement has the amazing property when mixed with water, it sticks to rock or brick and becomes stone hard. The water does not evaporate or dry. The water reacts chemically with the lime and remains. Every drop put in the wet mix is present in the finished product. This cannot happen in a vacuum.<br />
<br />
The finished product has great compressive strength but little tensile strength. Fortunately when iron bars, which have great tensile strength, are placed inside concrete, the cement coating both bonds strongly and protects the iron from rust. <br />
<br />
On Earth, most of the minerals used to make cement are associated with water in some way. Limestone is laid down by living organisms at the bottom of shallow seas. Gypsum forms when an inland sea dries up. There is no water on the Moon and there never has been. No minerals of this type can be expected.<br />
<br />
The Moon is cover with ground up rock and we will produce a number of interesting by-products when we harvest [[volatiles]] from it. We need to find a way to convert some of that particulate mater and some of those chemicals into a solid construction material. We need to do this with as little mass shipped from Earth as possible.<br />
<br />
Steel rebar will be hard to manufacture on the Moon. On Earth it is made by recycling old cars. We may be able to make [[fiberglass]] on the Moon and use it to reinforce the cement. <br />
<br />
With a decent mortar, rough stone masonry could become the defining architectural element of our lunar settlement (see [[Architecture in Field Stone]]). There is certainly no shortage of rocks.<br />
<br />
===Glue & Sealants===<br />
<br />
Outside on the Moon, we need to be able to glue things together and to seal leaky enclosures. This ability is life-or-death. <br />
<br />
===Color in Architecture===<br />
<br />
The Moon is gray. Asphalt parking lot gray. Monotonous, boring gray. We need to add color. We need bright colored [[paint]]. The bulk of the paint must come from lunar materials.<br />
<br />
===Your Idea Here===<br />
On the Moon: Lots of [[oxygen]], lots of [[titanium]]. [[Titanium dioxide]]. I dont know how it would be made into paint, but maybe if mixed into sinteered regolith it could be used to make it white. If we paint habitats garish colours, we might just drvie the colonists insane! [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 08:21, 11 August 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Industrial Production]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Robots]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Student Projects]]</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Lunar_Electrothermal_Oxygen_Rocket&diff=17841Talk:Lunar Electrothermal Oxygen Rocket2012-05-21T03:16:19Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Priorities in production */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Priorities in production==<br />
<br />
It would be very important to understand the real value/price of the things manufactured on the Moon. It is possible to run simulations on the flow charts from moonminer... and see. I have the feeling that Oxygen (for the thermoelectric rocket) would be scarce and '''expensive '''at the beggining of the settlement. Still If there is going to be a market economy on the Moon, prices will be decided by the invisible hand... Of course, without proper manufacturing implementation data and proper process simulation we are blind.<br />
<br />
Without this data all propositions are extremely speculative. This rocket is impossible in a small settlement.<br />
<br />
'''The article is being neutral and correct when states that the thermoelectric rocket might be implemented as a result of a large manufacturing moon settlement.'''--[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 01:45, 17 May 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:You will find that nowhere in the article does the word settlement appear. This is deliberate because to have a settlement there must be settlers but an industrial establishment can get by completely by remote control. Settlers should come only when their work can pay for their expenses, which would be considerable. There could be a massive industrial establishment with only ten workers doing the most urgently needed hands-on tasks and everything else being done by remote control from Earth. This would be a small settlement except that the workers would likely be there for temporary duty, not residing there. The electrothermal oxygen rocket, if it is ever economic, would likely predate any settlement because of being cheaper than supporting settlers. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 06:47, 17 May 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Yet, you assume that a rocket will be always cheaper than supporting settlers... "''would likely predate any settlement because of being cheaper than supporting settlers.''" I ask how you know that... I believe that one day it would be cheaper to support settlers than to build a rocket... But what I believe doesn't matter. The simulations will give us an approximation.<br />
<br />
:: Even in the case that there is an industrial establishment prior to the settlement, there would be a market. I mean... Would it be cheaper to produce such or such... It would cost to people on Earth or whoever is monitoring, adjusting, implementing, maintaining the remote control industrial establishment. Think about it this way... Even if a new system is implemented. Say, a rocket factory on the moon. You would have to pay the designers, architects, engineers, even the technician sending the orders to build that factory... remotely. You could argue here that it will always be cheaper to have someone doing that here than on the moon (intuitively true)... but again... I ask how you know that?<br />
<br />
::We need simulations on cost! And those simulations are very expensive man-hours for a group of engineers that will perform a theoretic [[FMEA]] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure_mode_and_effects_analysis) on the model... I guess If nobody does it in the next future (say next 5 years) I will end up doing them... It would take me forever to do them alone... However, before that happens perhaps someone on the Moon Society will do it before me. To even design the simulations it would be necessary more models than the ones that David Dieztler has and we would need an economist.--[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 03:16, 21 May 2012 (UTC)</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Lunar_Electrothermal_Oxygen_Rocket&diff=17840Talk:Lunar Electrothermal Oxygen Rocket2012-05-21T03:16:00Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Priorities in production */ New section.</p>
<hr />
<div>==Priorities in production==<br />
<br />
It would be very important to understand the real value/price of the things manufactured on the Moon. It is possible to run simulations on the flow charts from moonminer... and see. I have the feeling that Oxygen (for the thermoelectric rocket) would be scarce and '''expensive '''at the beggining of the settlement. Still If there is going to be a market economy on the Moon, prices will be decided by the invisible hand... Of course, without proper manufacturing implementation data and proper process simulation we are blind.<br />
<br />
Without this data all propositions are extremely speculative. This rocket is impossible in a small settlement.<br />
<br />
'''The article is being neutral and correct when states that the thermoelectric rocket might be implemented as a result of a large manufacturing moon settlement.'''--[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 01:45, 17 May 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:You will find that nowhere in the article does the word settlement appear. This is deliberate because to have a settlement there must be settlers but an industrial establishment can get by completely by remote control. Settlers should come only when their work can pay for their expenses, which would be considerable. There could be a massive industrial establishment with only ten workers doing the most urgently needed hands-on tasks and everything else being done by remote control from Earth. This would be a small settlement except that the workers would likely be there for temporary duty, not residing there. The electrothermal oxygen rocket, if it is ever economic, would likely predate any settlement because of being cheaper than supporting settlers. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 06:47, 17 May 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Yet, you assume that a rocket will be always cheaper than supporting settlers... "''would likely predate any settlement because of being cheaper than supporting settlers.''" I ask how you know that... I believe that one day it would be cheaper to support settlers than to build a rocket... But what I believe doesn't matter. The simulations will give us an approximation.<br />
<br />
:: Even in the case that there is an industrial establishment prior to the settlement, there would be a market. I mean... Would it be cheaper to produce such or such... It would cost to people on Earth or whoever is monitoring, adjusting, implementing, maintaining the remote control industrial establishment. Think about it this way... Even if a new system is implemented. Say, a rocket factory on the moon. You would have to pay the designers, architects, engineers, even the technician sending the orders to build that factory... remotely. You could argue here that it will always be cheaper to have someone doing that here than on the moon (intuitively true)... but again... I ask how you know that?<br />
<br />
::We need simulations on cost! And those simulations are very expensive man-hours for a group of engineers that will perform a theoretic [[FMEA]] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure_mode_and_effects_analysis) on the model... I guess If nobody does it in the next future (say next 5 years) I will end up doing them... It would take me forever to do them alone... However, before that happens perhaps someone on the Moon Society will do it before me. To even design the simulations it would be necessary more models than the ones that David Dieztler has and we would need an economist.</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:In-Situ_Propellant_Production&diff=17839Talk:In-Situ Propellant Production2012-05-21T02:52:07Z<p>Jotagiraldez: Nano Aluminium</p>
<hr />
<div>==Aluminium==<br />
<br />
Yes, indeed. Aluminium.<br />
<br />
Well, Aluminium's high melting point as a propellant could be overcome if it is added to the fuel mix as nano particles.<br />
<br />
Nano aluminium is highly explosive even at room temperature.</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Industrial_Mechanisms&diff=17838Industrial Mechanisms2012-05-21T02:43:45Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Cement */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Sandworm06.jpg|frame|Gear pump to regolith seal]]<br />
<br />
<BR clear="all"/><br />
<br />
{|align=right<br />
|__TOC__<br />
|}<br />
<br />
<font size=5> Industrial Mechanisms <BR> Needed on the Moon </font><br />
<br />
If you tour any construction site or factory on Earth you will see a number of basic industrial mechanisms that are at the foundation of all processes. We must design lunar versions of these mechanisms if we are to build a successful settlement on the [[Moon]]. The harsh lunar environment makes many of these very challenging designs.<br />
<br />
<br />
==Environmental Factors==<br />
<br />
The factors making machine design difficult in the lunar environment include:<br />
<br />
* [[Dust]]<br />
* Harsh UV sunlight<br />
* Temperature extremes<br />
* [[Radiation Problem]]<br />
* No air<br />
* Electrostatics<br />
<br />
The familiarity of the Earth versions coupled with the harshness of the lunar environment make many of these redesigns excellent student projects. They are also a fertile field for entrepreneurs.<br />
<br />
==Mechanisms List==<br />
<br />
The following list covers basic mechanisms found in Earth industry that we must have for commercial operations on the Moon:<br />
<br />
===Rotary Seal===<br />
<br />
This is the seal on a spinning shaft such as a motor. It keeps dirt out of the bearings and the lubrication in. It must be flexible yet stand up in a long life of riding against a spinning shaft.<br />
<br />
On Earth, these seals are made from rubber and plastic compounds and are highly successful in a wide range of environments.<br />
<br />
On the Moon, the big challenges include the gritty dust and the lack of an atmosphere. This adaptation should not be too challenging but a great many materials may need to be tested in realistic lunar conditions.<br />
<br />
===Linear Seal===<br />
<br />
These seals must slide across a polished metal rod as in hydraulic pistons. Look around an Earth construction site and you will see these pistons everywhere. These shafts move in and out exposing their surfaces first to the internal hydraulic oil and then to the local environment. The seals must hold in the significant pressure while withstanding the ware of sliding.<br />
<br />
On Earth, these seals are made from rubber and plastic compounds and, again, are highly successful in a wide range of environments. The gas shocks in modern cars are one good example.<br />
<br />
On the Moon, this design problem is a project killer that must be solved. The lunar dust is highly abrasive. The film of oil left on the rod will probably hold the fine dust. The seals must push this mix out of the way or withstand this extremely abrasive paste for a very long time. A blow out of the oil would be a major break down and could be life threatening.<br />
<br />
Linear seals are one of the design challenges for commercialization of the Moon.<br />
<br />
Hydraulic pistons can be lubricated to maintain a linear seal by encasing the entire length of the hydraulic piston in accordion-fold type sleeve that holds a pound per square inch or so of gas pressure around the hydraulic piston so the lubricant does not evaporate. The same can not be done for the rotary bearings of wheels. A thin foil accordion-fold micrometeor shield can in turn protect the pressure retention sleeve. The dual sleeves around the hydraulic pistons would also keep dust away from the polished metal rod. This is the sort of solution that is referred to in [[Robots in Space Suits]].<br />
<br />
===Wire Rope Systems===<br />
<br />
Wire rope systems with there wenches, pulleys, and hooks, are one of the most useful devices in Earth industry. They are very widely used despite their inherent dangers. These systems are notorious for crushing off fingers and delivering slashing wounds when broken cable ends fly.<br />
<br />
On the Moon, wire rope systems will have difficulty surviving in the dusty environment, but the chief design challenge is the danger they pose to a person working in a spacesuit. <br />
<br />
This problem will be addressed by having all wire rope work in a vacuum environment done by remotely controlled machines.<br />
<br />
===Conveyor Belt===<br />
<br />
The conveyor belt is the foundation mechanism of mass production. They move stuff. Typically they contain a large number of moving parts and joints. They are driven at one location and many have many support wheels and rollers along their length.<br />
<br />
On the Moon, the primary challenge is wear from the dust.<br />
<br />
A conveyor belt designed for lunar vacuum use can be a train of slats supported at their ends by magnetic suspension in tracks and a belt of fiber-glass riding on the slats. Electronic controls are needed for the magnetic suspension, a control unit at both ends of each slat. The tracks can be roughly U shaped channels that are swept clean of dust continuously by fiber-glass brushes. The belt and brushes would be expendable items.<br />
<br />
===Tire===<br />
<br />
Moving around a lunar settlement will not require vehicles with wheels. Wheels must have tires of some sort. The ability to negotiate lunar slopes will be a major factor in lunar transportation. Good tires on wheels can be used for transversing these slopes, but there are other options. <br />
<br />
On Earth, tires are universally made from synthetic rubber and inflated with air. This design is completely unsatisfactory for the lunar environment. <br />
<br />
On the Moon, the Apollo rover tires were made from metal mesh and worked reasonably well. They did however throw up a lot of dust and were never pushed onto steep slopes. Wheels designed for lunar vacuum use have so far been of rather limited design lifetime. The challenge of producing wheeled vehicles for ten years of industrial use might be successfully accomplished but legged vehicles could serve. Vehicles on the moon that walk on legs do not need rotary seals and the linear seals that they need can be satisfactorily produced (see [[Industrial Mechanisms#Linear Seal|above]]).<br />
<br />
===Caterpillar Tread===<br />
<br />
The Caterpillar or tank tread is used extensively in construction and mining on Earth to allow heavy equipment to move across open grown. They are massive and contain a very large number of joints and bearings.<br />
<br />
Treads can be a difficult maintenance problem in dusty environments. One of Field Marshal Romel's great innovations in the WWII North Africa campaign was to load his tanks onto trucks for long hauls. This greatly reduced the break down rate of the treads.<br />
<br />
On the Moon, the dust will be a severe challenge for treads. It will simply wear them out. The mass of most tread designs is also a problem as long as that mass has to be shipped from Earth.<br />
<br />
One solution is to not use tank treads on Luna but to use legged vehicles in their place. Legged vehicles do not need a rotary seal which has been a problem on the moon but use linear seals in hydraulic pistons in their legs. A method of designing such seals is available (see [[Industrial Mechanisms#Linear Seal|above]]). Computerized means of controling legged vehicles have also been developed in recent years. <br />
<br />
===Power Distribution Cable===<br />
<br />
Lunar power generation stations, solar or nuclear, will need to be separated from both living areas and commercial operations. Distance is needed both for safety and to avoid the dust kicked up by human activity. Also the optimal site location for one activity is rarely the optimum location for another.<br />
<br />
We will need a way to efficiently send electrical power over at least a few kilometers. This must be done safely and with a minimum of mass shipped from Earth.<br />
<br />
===Cement===<br />
<small>See also [[Structural Engineering]]</small><br />
<br />
How can we build a settlement without good cement? Both in the form of concrete and as mortar, it is the universal construction material on Earth.<br />
<br />
Cement is a good example of a process we depend on on Earth that must be modified for the Moon. On Earth we heat limestone driving off the water to make slaked lime. We add a stabilizing mineral. The Romans used volcanic ash; we use gypsum. We mix this cement with sand to make mortar or with crushed rock to make concrete.<br />
<br />
The cement has the amazing property when mixed with water, it sticks to rock or brick and becomes stone hard. The water does not evaporate or dry. The water reacts chemically with the lime and remains. Every drop put in the wet mix is present in the finished product. This cannot happen in a vacuum.<br />
<br />
The finished product has great compressive strength but little tensile strength. Fortunately when iron bars, which have great tensile strength, are placed inside concrete, the cement coating both bonds strongly and protects the iron from rust. <br />
<br />
On Earth, most of the minerals used to make cement are associated with water in some way. Limestone is laid down by living organisms at the bottom of shallow seas. Gypsum forms when an inland sea dries up. There is no water on the Moon and there never has been. No minerals of this type can be expected.<br />
<br />
The Moon is cover with ground up rock and we will produce a number of interesting by-products when we harvest [[volatiles]] from it. We need to find a way to convert some of that particulate mater and some of those chemicals into a solid construction material. We need to do this with as little mass shipped from Earth as possible.<br />
<br />
Steel rebar will be hard to manufacture on the Moon. On Earth it is made by recycling old cars. We may be able to make [[fiberglass]] on the Moon and use it to reinforce the cement. <br />
<br />
With a decent mortar, rough stone masonry could become the defining architectural element of our lunar settlement (see [[Architecture in Field Stone]]). There is certainly no shortage of rocks.<br />
<br />
===Glue & Sealants===<br />
<br />
Outside on the Moon, we need to be able to glue things together and to seal leaky enclosures. This ability is life-or-death. <br />
<br />
===Color in Architecture===<br />
<br />
The Moon is gray. Asphalt parking lot gray. Monotonous, boring gray. We need to add color. We need bright colored [[paint]]. The bulk of the paint must come from lunar materials.<br />
<br />
===Your Idea Here===<br />
On the Moon: Lots of [[oxygen]], lots of [[titanium]]. [[Titanium dioxide]]. I dont know how it would be made into paint, but maybe if mixed into sinteered regolith it could be used to make it white. If we paint habitats garish colours, we might just drvie the colonists insane! [[User:T.Neo|T.Neo]] 08:21, 11 August 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Industrial Production]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Robots]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Student Projects]]</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Lunar_Electrothermal_Oxygen_Rocket&diff=17809Talk:Lunar Electrothermal Oxygen Rocket2012-05-17T01:45:10Z<p>Jotagiraldez: Priorities in production</p>
<hr />
<div>==Priorities in production==<br />
<br />
It would be very important to understand the real value/price of the things manufactured on the Moon. It is possible to run simulations on the flow charts from moonminer... and see. I have the feeling that Oxygen (for the thermoelectric rocket) would be scarce and '''expensive '''at the beggining of the settlement. Still If there is going to be a market economy on the Moon, prices will be decided by the invisible hand... Of course, without proper manufacturing implementation data and proper process simulation we are blind.<br />
<br />
Without this data all propositions are extremely speculative. This rocket is impossible in a small settlement.<br />
<br />
'''The article is being neutral and correct when states that the thermoelectric rocket might be implemented as a result of a large manufacturing moon settlement.'''--[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 01:45, 17 May 2012 (UTC)</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Telemetry_of_Vital_Signs&diff=17808Talk:Telemetry of Vital Signs2012-05-17T01:23:28Z<p>Jotagiraldez: Monitoring tools</p>
<hr />
<div>There should be an article called [[Lunar Medicine]] and a Category called [[Medicine]] or [[Space Medicine]].<br />
==Not encouraging spammers== <br />
Links to the organizations that employ them are what spammers are after. In the interest of discouraging spam I will remove links to Heart Rate Monitor Zone and find some other reference. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 14:49, 8 May 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Changes in wording== <br />
I was unsure what was meant by some of the wording in the article. Do you think it is satisfactory as I have changed it or should it be improved? Sometimes I fail to see what is unclear in what I have written because I already know what I mean. Of course the article is just a stub yet but I would need to do some research to make it substantially more detailed. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 16:48, 8 May 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Monitoring tools==<br />
Monitoring is becoming an area of development for quality control and statistical analysis. I work in a Data Center. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_center) I design the procedures of quality control. Event though I do not participate directly in the monitoring (We have technicians to do that). I have had experience working with the technicians. We monitor at least 10 thousand servers + 200 thousand others... I mean... Switches, routers,cameras, podiums... anything really...<br />
<br />
I know that the moon will have a Data Center and will have many of the modern features of an integrated control system.<br />
<br />
That is another topic though. There is already a vital-signs monitoring system within NASA. And it is very old. I am pretty sure that vital-sign monitoring was implemented before the Gemini program.<br />
<br />
Yet, I think in the future I might write a [[Lunar Data Center]] article that could discuss the obvious advantages of having all the computing power on Earth... and just maintaining a Satellite link with the moon. Or an Article called [[Lunar IT Systems Architecture]]...</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Telemetry_of_Vital_Signs&diff=17684Telemetry of Vital Signs2012-05-08T03:50:59Z<p>Jotagiraldez: </p>
<hr />
<div>Telemetry of the vital signs is important. A worker in a protective suit in a hostile environment should have any means of monitoring life and suit condition just in case its is not sufficiently attentive and misses a danger indication on her own display. The worker can be warned to head for the air lock or a rescue team can rush in to retrieve her.<br />
<br />
A heart monitor is a device used on Earth to accomplish this purpose.<ref> http://www.heartratemonitorzone.net/ </ref><br />
<br />
Spacelabs worked on medical telemetry for astronauts in 1958.<ref> http://www.medcatalog.com/R_S/spacelabs_medical_tlemetry.htm </ref><br />
==Reference==<br />
<references/></div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Telemetry_of_Vital_Signs&diff=17683Telemetry of Vital Signs2012-05-08T02:41:12Z<p>Jotagiraldez: Minor edit</p>
<hr />
<div>Telemetry of the vital signs is important. A worker in a protective suit in a hostile environment should have any means of monitoring life and suit condition just in case its is not sufficiently attentive and misses a danger indication on her own display. The worker can be warned to head for the air lock or a rescue team can rush in to retrieve her.<br />
<br />
A heart monitor is a device used on Earth to accomplish this purpose.<ref> http://www.heartratemonitorzone.net/ </ref><br />
<br />
==Reference==<br />
<references/></div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Telemetry_of_Vital_Signs&diff=17682Talk:Telemetry of Vital Signs2012-05-08T02:33:17Z<p>Jotagiraldez: Created page with "There should be an article called Lunar Medicine and a Category called Medicine or Space Medicine."</p>
<hr />
<div>There should be an article called [[Lunar Medicine]] and a Category called [[Medicine]] or [[Space Medicine]].</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Telemetry_of_Vital_Signs&diff=17681Telemetry of Vital Signs2012-05-08T02:31:47Z<p>Jotagiraldez: Created page with "Telemetry of the vital signs is important. A worker in a protective suit in a hostile environment should have a buddy monitoring her condition and the suit's condition just in ca..."</p>
<hr />
<div>Telemetry of the vital signs is important. A worker in a protective suit in a hostile environment should have a buddy monitoring her condition and the suit's condition just in case she is not sufficiently attentive and misses a danger indication on her own display. The worker can be warned to head for the air lock or a rescue team can rush in to retrieve her.</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Dbb213bs&diff=17680User talk:Dbb213bs2012-05-08T02:30:49Z<p>Jotagiraldez: Creating link.</p>
<hr />
<div>You will find that Polar made their first heart rate monitor in 1977,<br />
and this first monitor was actually created <br />
for a Cross Country Ski Team.<br />
Most heart rate monitors come with proprietary <br />
software that will allow you to upload your figures and view graphs of your performance.<br />
<br />
<br />
My Site: [http://www.heartratemonitorzone.net best heart rate monitor]<br />
<br />
:This is advertising of retail heart rate monitors. However, there is a possible application to lunar settlements. [[Telemetry of Vital Signs|Telemetry of vital signs]] is important. A worker in a protective suit in a hostile environment should have a buddy monitoring her condition and the suit's condition just in case she is not sufficiently attentive and misses a danger indication on her own display. The worker can be warned to head for the air lock or a rescue team can rush in to retrieve her. If you are interested in moon colonies, write something related to them. If you are a computer program that can not converse, I will remove your external link and ignore you. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 13:44, 7 May 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: Lets just created the article. User Dbb213bs might be just spamming. Let's just save the idea.--[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 02:30, 8 May 2012 (UTC)</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Cast_Basalt&diff=17679Talk:Cast Basalt2012-05-08T02:25:32Z<p>Jotagiraldez: </p>
<hr />
<div>==Where?== <br />
At what or at whom should we cast basalt? - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:51, 7 May 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
On Sand... according to David's site.--[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 02:25, 8 May 2012 (UTC)</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Carbon_Economy&diff=17643Carbon Economy2012-05-04T00:29:03Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Related Articles */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Economical Carbon Use and Process Synergies in Early Lunar Development== <br />
<br />
Over the last 20 years, many researchers have noted the desirability of using in-situ resources for multiplying the return from each dollar spent on space exploration (reference ii). Less explored are the possibilities for combining the results of different [[ISRU|in-situ resource extraction]] processes, much less using them in combination with the biological wastes of base workers. This effort explores some of the possibilities for doing both in the early stages of lunar development. <br />
<br />
The traditional suggestion for making the most of every pound of food shipped to the Moon is : Recycle wastes to grow new food! This copying of the [[Carbon cycle]] we see here on Earth is both natural, and logical. It is also quite expensive to set it up where it has never been before on a stable basis. Research on the subject has shown that large inputs for [[agriculture]] on the Moon are most probable, before any payback ever begins, much less breaks even, even on small scales. <br />
<br />
These inputs include: Biologically secure [[acreage]] in close proximity to the base and its personnel, [[Power for Settlements|electrical power]] capacity to light the crops during [[lunar night]], machinery and material from Earth to illuminate and house and manipulate soil and crops, dedicated base worker man-hours to “keep the farm going”, dedicated man-hours for processing crops into edible [[food|foodstuffs]], machines and material for processing that process waste and the human waste into acceptable [[fertilizer]] for “the farm”. Lastly, we need the [[lift capacity]], and the money to pay, for all this to be shipped to the lunar surface. When we have the example of the [[ISS into the Pacific|ISS]] in front of us, where most of the man-hours are consumed just keeping the Station running, we do not need to replicate those particular problems on the [[Moon]], at greater cost! <br />
<br />
To facilitate focus of attention, I will speak of these matters in relation to a particular lunar development concept now in the process of being demonstrated in the virtual world of [[Second Life]], at the [[NASA CoLab]] site there. This is a three phase concept for development that starts with an [[inflatable Outpost Module]] suspended within the entrance to a lunar [[lava tubes|lavatube]] cave, whose explorers confirm the site as useful for development. Then they begin to help to suspend larger inflatable modules farther inside, with base crews totaling 20 crew installing and running a [[LOX Plant]], a [[Carbonyl Metals Plant]], and a [[Basalt Fiber Plant]] for [[Phase I Outpost|Phase I]]. It continues with the base crews using these in-situ materials to build most of the mass of the modules for the [[Phase II Settlement]] further inside the lavatubes, housing 200 or more people. <br />
<br />
<br />
People from this settlement can be employed to seal larger lavatubes nearby, creating a [[Phase III Community]] as a viable human habitation for thousands of people, who can blossom in a diversified and healthy economy while owning their own real estate in a spacious 1 atmosphere and 1/6th [[gravity]] environment. While this development concept includes power sources and other aspects, we will focus on [[Carbon economy]], its possible process synergies, and the question of where do we start to see that the costs of organic recycling can be amortized quickly enough to make it worthwhile. <br />
<br />
<br />
The functions of the Outpost and Base are both time-limited, and subject to the discipline in crews on a focused and urgent schedule. In this situation, the [[nutritional constraints]] of [[freeze-dried food]] and [[vitamins]] will be an acceptable environment to get their tasks done. Any demand in Phase I for using [[Carbon]] only in a full organic recycling system must therefore be justified in reductions of total system costs, including launch. Those total system costs include more uses for Carbon than just human consumption, however.<br />
<br />
==Industrial Uses== <br />
<br />
<br />
When all costs are high, make each kilogram do double duty as cheaply as possible. <br />
<br />
<br />
The industrial processes of the [[LOX]] Plant, the Metals Plant, and the [[Basalt]] Fiber Plant are good examples of process synergy, extracting more and more from the same gathered material. In the LOX Plant, whether using the direct [[magma electrolysis|electrolysis]] of molten [[regolith]], or the indirect [[electrolysis]] of water derived from [[Ilmenite Reduction|hydrogen reduction]] of lunar [[Lunar Regolith|fines]], substantial fine waste material is generated, highly enriched in reduced [[ferrous metals]] at minimum. If desirable, this can proceed to reduction of [[Aluminum]] oxides as well in the direct process. These reduced ferrous metals are intimately mixed with unreduced oxides of lighter metals and [[silica]]. <br />
<br />
<br />
The ferrous metals can be extracted from the mixture by the [[Mond Process]], using [[carbon monoxide]]. The remaining materials, including large amounts of [[alumina]], can be sent to the Basalt Fiber furnace. There, the high alumina and silica content of the Mond Process waste will enrich the basaltic proportions of metal oxides, moving the melt into the composition range of high tensile strength [[S-glass]]. If [[Aluminum]] has been extracted from the [[alumina]] at the LOX Plant, then the mix will be enriched far more by even lighter metal oxides like [[calcium oxide]], producing low melting temperature glass, for use as a matrix between the higher melting point [[S-glass]] fibers. <br />
<br />
<br />
The Mond process, for extracting ferrous metals from in-situ resources at low temperatures, is the basis of the Metals Plant. It requires pressurized carbon monoxide, to form the metal [[carbonyls]] that are the intermediate step to [[vapor deposition]] of these metals. The carbonyl bonds are broken at lower pressures and higher temperature, depositing metal, and freeing carbon monoxide. While the equipment can and will be designed to recycle carbon monoxide freed from the carbonyl molecules in this vapor deposition process, process losses to the exterior will inevitably occur. Because the vacuum of the lunar environment will cause near instant disassociation of escaped [[Fe(CO)5]] and [[Ni(CO)4]] , that carbon monoxide will be lost. This must be replaced. When we require hundreds of tons of metals to build the Phase II Settlement, and the far greater amounts for the Phase III sealed lava tube community, the replacement of these losses from Earth will become very expensive. <br />
<br />
<br />
In addition, the needs of humans for [[Oxygen]] do not require biological recycling. The LOX Plant will be sized to deliver propellant for vehicles leaving the site for elsewhere on the Moon, or other bodies. This will mean that a small fraction of the Plant output can support the human crews. It will extract Oxygen through electrolyzing either directly melted regolith, or the water derived from Hydrogen reduction of regolith fines. The other [[volatiles]] bound to the [[Carbon]] in wastes can also be reused using the heat of [[solar mirrors]] to [[pyrolyze]] the wastes, and then the cold of LOX to selectively freeze out each volatile. Liquified volatiles can then be electrolyzed for their respective [[Nitrogen]], [[Hydrogen]], [[Oxygen]] and carbon monoxide separately. The Hydrogen and Oxygen can be turned into pure water, and the Nitrogen can be used for replacing atmospheric losses through airlocks. Alternatively, it can be stored for making [[Aluminum oxynitride|AlON]] (reference ii) window panels for the Phase II Settlement Modules. <br />
<br />
<br />
In addition, there will be some uses for the fibers from the Basalt Fiber Plant which do not lend themselves to either ferrous metal-coated fibers, or to ferrous metals as the matrix of the composites, or to low temp. glass matrix materials. These requirements will have to be fulfilled by using plastics as coatings and matrix materials, in which Carbon, Hydrogen and [[Silicon]] will have a strong part. The Carbon , Nitrogen and Hydrogen will either be derived from the wastes of humans, or be shipped up in the form of ready plastics, at great cost. <br />
<br />
<br />
Obviously, at some point these needs for Carbon and other volatiles in the industrial processes supporting human activities will become greater than the volatiles available from human wastes at the site. At this point, importation of Carbon and other volatiles for industrial uses becomes essential. If these must be got from Earth, then costs will be so high as to limit further lunar development. <br />
<br />
<br />
Their importation from [[asteroid]] resources has been suggested, and seems a high probability, once a market for volatiles large enough to support such measures already exists. The energy costs for delivery to the lunar surface from a near-earth asteroid are as much as 20 times lower than Earth-launched material. It simply requires large capitalization to get started. That is where the previous use of these “waste” materials in industrial processes may be essential to provide the low-investment availability of Carbon and other volatiles, before the asteroids are tapped. Using these materials already present on site, because of human biology, the market for larger amounts of volatiles can be built up to levels that will justify the investments needed to establish processing at and shipping from the asteroids.<br />
<br />
==The Uses of Food== <br />
<br />
<br />
In the preceding section it is obvious that we are using food to ship up Carbon and other volatiles, only pausing to process them through humans before their industrial applications begin. As the focused and urgent schedule of a Phase I Base site gives way to the Phase II Settlement's longer-term viewpoint, the balance for human psychology will change, however, and food has always been part of that. The attitudes and emotions of humans are their lowest mass attributes, but they are huge contributors to their productivity. <br />
<br />
<br />
Even as the population of the Phase II Settlement's 200 or more people are less schedule driven, they now have a settlement, with families to support, both physically and psychologically. Fresh food, as a treat and a reward for family members, can become a regular part of settlement life, now that all material inputs for the “farms” needn't be lifted from Earth. With this decrease in capital costs, growing small volume high value foods can become economically viable. <br />
<br />
<br />
While agronomists can plan on Earth what foods can be grown easiest in some larger Phase II modules, the crucial test will be what the settlers will want enough to buy at a high price, as a treat or reward. Here entrepreneurial farmers will come into their own, providing in small volumes the tastes that settlers actually prefer, rather than a pre-planned menu with volume and nutrition as the main selection criteria. The farm module's costs will still be high, as even shipping the farmer to the Moon will be costly. Any planning of these investments that overly limits the cropping flexibility of these farms will put their success at high risk. The use of human wastes, tapped out of the flow to industrial processes will be a natural option. The point in the flow they are tapped from must be planned, beginning the tapping even as more dried foods are shipped from Earth. <br />
<br />
<br />
This change in human waste flows, from industrial to agricultural processes, must eventually be managed in concert with the introduction of carbonaceous volatiles from near earth asteroids. These will need processing before they can sustain plants, and the human wastes will be preferred for [[agriculture]], while the asteroidal material takes up the vast majority of industrial inputs of volatiles. <br />
<br />
<br />
Eventually, the growing agricultural sector of the settlement's economy will displace most shipments of dried food from Earth with fresh tasty fare. This will speed up as the open space of the Phase III Community allows starting farms without individual modules. While this will result in plant-produced Oxygen becoming a larger share of the atmosphere in the later stages of development, this will be economically incidental by that time. <br />
<br />
<br />
The presence of the LOX Plant will undo any arguments that plants are needed to recycle volatiles into atmospheric Oxygen. The use of LOX in [[heat exchangers]] to cool volatiles for selective freezing out will simplify the separation processes for all volatiles from human wastes. The need for metals, and for safer metal refining through the Mond Process, will require that carbon monoxide be available to replace process losses. <br />
<br />
<br />
Thus, the initiation of agriculture to support human lunar activity will depend on the very highest return strategies, involving the morale and rewards of the growing population. These will, after all, be more crucial to the success of lunar communities than anything else that fresh foods could help with. Once farms are established, and fertilizer flows are switched totally to growing plants instead of metals, the incremental growth towards more organic nutritional sustenance can flow quickly. <br />
<br />
===Notes=== <br />
ii. Also known as [[Aluminum oxynitride]], or popularly, “[[Transparent Aluminum]]” <br />
<br />
==Related Articles==<br />
*[[Lunar Carbon Production]]<br />
*[[Bootstrapping Industry]] <br />
*[[Fluorine Reaction]]<br />
*[[Ilmenite Reduction]]<br />
*[[Magma Electrolysis]]<br />
*[[Volatiles]]<br />
<br />
==External Links== <br />
==References== <br />
<br />
*i. John S. Lewis and Ruth A. Lewis, “Space Resources:Breaking the Bonds of Earth”, 1987, Columbia University Press, ISBN 0-231-06498-5 <br />
<br />
[[Category:Life Support]] <br />
[[Category:Materials]] <br />
[[Category:Chemistry]] <br />
[[Category:ISRU]] <br />
[[Category:Agriculture]] <br />
[[Category:Business]] <br />
[[Category:Settlement]]<br />
[[Category:Food]]</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Lunar_Bill_of_Rights&diff=17600Talk:Lunar Bill of Rights2012-04-25T21:58:20Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Right to bear and keep arms */</p>
<hr />
<div>{|align=left<br />
|__TOC__<br />
|}<br />
<br><br><br />
<br><br><br />
<br><br><br />
'''Have your say here''' <br />
<br />
If this article does not start a lively conversation, nothing will. <br />
<br />
--[[User:Jriley|Jriley]] 07:58, 17 March 2007 (PDT) <br />
<br />
==Right to bear and keep arms==<br />
<br />
I know it will :-) Hehe! <br />
<br />
Let me start the ball rolling: <br />
<br />
:I fully support the right to keep and bear arms. I also fully support the right to defend your person, home, property or family against attackers, intruders, burglars and thieves. <br />
<br />
:I would be against allowing conventional ammunition for civilian use due to the danger it would pose to the pressure vessel. But there are special types of ammunition available. <br />
<br />
:In the early days, there will not be much need for law enforcement or even self defense, but as the settlements grow things might change somewhat. But this is not the wild west we're talking about, this will be a very tightly sealed environment, and there are no animals to hunt or defend ourselves from. So I must ask the question "Will civilian held guns be necessary at all?". <br />
<br />
:In answer to that I have to look at countries where guns are illegal and theoretically unobtainable. In a number of those countries, only the criminals (and a few police) have guns. Interestingly, gun crime is on the rise in those countries. <br />
<br />
-- [[User:Mdelaney|Mdelaney]] 03:27, 04 April 2007 (BST)<br />
<br />
:Surviving on the moon means a change in the human behavior. Social Darwinism says that behaviors that do not help preserve/increase the gene pool would be ostracized (examples from the history of human civilization: Homosexuality, Incest...)<br />
<br />
:Guns, violence are something that have to be ostracized. Not a utopia, but also economics and private property will change in the moon... If we look back at the development of capitalism and we compare the capitalism of today with the capitalism of 100 years ago there are differences... Do we want to export to the moon the same system?<br />
<br />
:Therefore, guns and violence, self defense, private property will be different on the Moon... The point is to think what we want to do with it. We could channel the Lunar constitution to avoid such things as guns...<br />
<br />
:I am not American, but I know that we can live without them... Prior to my first week in America I hadn't seen a gun in my life... I was really scared when I saw one for the first time... I was 21 and the gun was in a policeman's holster...<br />
<br />
:I do not understand why other countries can live without guns and Americans can't... It is simply a matter of decide what kind of civilization we want to export... We could export the guns civilization or we can just prevent that from happening...<br />
<br />
:History will tell the guns story on the moon...----[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 08:56, 25 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::There is some history that led to the right to bear arms in the United States. In England the monarchy passed from the House of Stewart to the House of Hanover. The Jacobite Rebellions attempted to put the House of Stewart back on the throne. After the failure of the rising of 1715 the government confiscated weapons of the Stewart supporters. This left them unable to defend themselves against bandits who lived in the highlands and raided anyone seen as having reasonably moveable items of wealth, like cows, sheep, and gold coins. Weapons in the American colonies were used for hunting which was an economically important source of food. Settlers also banded together occasionally to fight off the aboriginal inhabitants. All of this tended to lend a favorable light to the ownership of weapons, and the constitutional amendment guaranteeing the right to bear arms. <br />
::These things do not have such significance for a moon colony but it is hard to enforce laws against all weapons. Modifications to various sorts of nail guns can result in weapons that fire nails. A machine shop might not be able to equal modern factory made weapons, but if the mass produced product is unavailable rough machine shop made weapons could be the most effective guns around. People who want to violate a law often find ways of doing so. If there comes to be any motive for criminals to have guns on Luna, it would be hard to block every means of acquiring them. People might want to be prepared. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:08, 25 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Again, there might not be a need to enforce a law against weapons. As society evolves on the moon --with a new set of methods of production, a different capitalism (or post capitalism), a different economy... society might evolve. They might not be a need for guns or violence...<br />
<br />
:::Certainly, we do not know... It can also happen that Moon's culture might turn even more violent than Earth's... All we can do is just to steer their society into a non violent one... Education will play a huge part in the future of Moon Citizen's... If the first settlers are non violent and have a non-gun background they could slow the process of human nature... --[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 21:57, 25 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Lunar citizens versus Flags of Convenience== <br />
<br />
So which will it be, Lunar citizens or Flags of Convenience? We do not need both. If the Moon is a nation-state, then it will have jurisdiction, and flags of convenience will not apply. On the other hand, if the Moon is an international entity governed jointly by, say the United Nations, then there will be no such thing as a lunar citizens, all humans on the Moon will be citizens of one or more terrestrial countries, and the Moon will be covered with flags of convenience. So which is it? If the Moon is not a nation state, then the bill of rights means nothing, all persons will be governed by the laws of their home country and the United Nations treaties of 1967 and 1979 etc. <br />
[[User:Cfrjlr|Charles F. Radley]] 19:47, 3 April 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
:I've been slowly coming to the conclusion that a world government for any world of significant size, which Luna most certainly qualifies for, is either a really bad idea, or just another variant on Niven's "It was raining on Mongo that morning" problem (or both). There probably will be both flags of convenience and non-Earth citizenship, just not in the same territory. I happen to know I'm far from alone in wanting to be in the latter rather than the former -- the ancient Greek colonial model may be the optimal one: Athens may have founded the colony, but the colony is set up as an independent city-state. <br />
<br />
:Furthermore, I believe we should have as many competing models of how to structure a society in place as possible, from attempts at stable hippie-style communes to anarcho-capitalist havens to highly centralized bastions of order above all else (and plenty of things in betwixt -- and anyone who knows me knows which of those three polar cases I would choose...). Rather than have the socialists, moral conservatives, libertarians, et c. at each other's throats, let's have them set up independently with no expectations of controlling each other. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 03:05, 4 April 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
:Wasn't the hippie-style commune based loosely on the kibbutz? -- [[User:Mdelaney|Mdelaney]] 18:27, 04 April 2007 (BST)<br />
<br />
::The cost of setting up a colony on Luna that pays its own way will be enormous. A colony or colonies will be on Luna by the agreement of all major industrial nations on Earth, or there will be no colony. Neither the United States nor Russia nor China nor the European Union will tolerate a hostile colony on Luna because such a colony could gain military domination of the whole Earth from space. The extreme vulnerability of such a colony during the long developmental period gives any of those entities the power to unilaterally destroy it before it becomes a problem. We need to keep the agreement on a nonmilitary moon and establish the monitoring system to ensure compliance. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:50, 11 August 2011 (UTC) <br />
:::In order to communicate more clearly the possibility of military domination of Earth from the moon and avoid suggesting that any particular nation would want to do this, I introduce a simpleminded bit of science fiction in which two new nations are added to those on Earth. I replace the Bahamas with the island nation of Adamantia, located in the North Atlantic and about the size of England and France combined. I place Muland in the South Pacific half way between New Zeeland and Easter Island and about half the size of Libya. Both of these countries stayed neutral during most of World War II. Adamantia declared war on both Germany and Japan in August of 1944 with Muland following suit in September of 1944. <br />
:::Having established these nations in Geography and History, I ignore most of history as irrelevant to the story and only describe Adamantia's keen interest in space exploration. It failed to acquire any German rocket scientists during WW II, but managed to reach Luna anyway sending a robot probe that landed in August of 1975. Making great efforts, Adamantia sent 3 or 4 robot missions to Luna every year and shared with the world photographs of magnificent desolation in great detail including photographs of abandoned robot probes which seemed to fail rather regularly. The United states, the Soviet Union, and Western European countries decided to ignore Adamantia's wasteful obsession and concentrated on satellites in Earth orbit to the extent that they had any interest in outer space at all. This continued until May of 2027 when United States Strategic Air Command took note of radar echoes indicating spacecraft appearing from behind the Moon. <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Those Adamantian bastards have been hiding an army behind the moon." <br />
:::General Bricksides: "We have satellites failing all over the sky. This is not merely a coincidence. Radar is picking up a very regular meteor shower of the pellets that miss satellites and hit the atmosphere." <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Those spacecraft have trajectories aimed at skimming the atmosphere. They must want to aerobrake to acquire LEO." <br />
:::General Bricksides: "We have got to pound Adamantia now. If we wait they will have weapons in orbit that can stop anything we send." <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Get targeting for all of our ICBMs switched to Adamantia. See what we have that can target those incoming spacecraft. I am on the hot line to the President." <br />
:::Hot line: "The Vice President of the United States will be speaking to you momentarily, sir." <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Damn, not Seymour." <br />
:::Vice President Seymour Milquetoast: "I heard that General Blackfoot. Now, what is the national emergency?" <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Sir, The United States is under attack from the nation of Adamantia. Our satellites are being destroyed along with those of all other nations. Adamantian spacecraft are headed to take up position in Low Earth Orbit from which it is expected they could stop all airborne attacks against their nation. We must counter attack now while we have the chance. A robot army in orbit will not do them any good if they are all dead." <br />
:::Vice President: "General, I find this hard to believe. We have friendly relations with Adamantia. There has never been a previous report about them being a major military threat. Couldn't those spacecraft belong to someone else?" <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Sir, only Adamantia has been sending spacecraft regularly to the moon. Apparently they did more than photograph craters and chemically analyze rocks. They must have established factories and built those spacecraft." <br />
:::Vice President: "You say they built factories on the moon that they used to build spacecraft on the moon? How would they ever launch them? There is no rocket fuel on the moon. Adamantia could not have sent up enough rocket fuel to launch a significant military force." <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Sir, They must have found a way to launch them (See: [[List of Propulsion Systems]]) because we see them on radar. Adamantia is the only country up there. They must be behind the spacecraft."<br />
:::Vice President: "In about five hours the president will be available, in the mean time I have been ordered to act in his behalf. I will have the State Department contact Adamantia to find out what they know about this. It could be extraterrestrials are invading. I authorize attacking the unknown spacecraft, but take no action against Adamantia at this time. I am convening a meeting of the military emergency team for two hours from now. They should have analysis prepared by then." <br />
:::SOUND OF GUNSHOT <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "It seems as though we have had a communications equipment failure. Robert, you have two things to do. Arrest me for damage of government property and bomb the stuffing out of Adamantia. <br />
:::General Bricksides: "General Blackfoot, considering your admission of damaging government property I am busting you to brigadier effective tomorrow, pending review by court martial when we have time to convene one. Meanwhile we have planes and missiles to launch. <br />
:::So the first wave of the attack against Adamantia turned it into rubble. The second wave made the rubble bounce. <br />
:::After two days Generals Blackfoot and Bricksides were in prison when the radio announcement came from Muland: "We deeply regret the unprovoked attack of the United States against our ally Adamantia. Luckily a sizable number of the leaders were visiting Muland on business at the time and have survived. Considering the violent state of international relations at this time we declare a world wide prohibition of launching any aircraft or rockets without prior permission from the Department of Air Security of Muland. Craft that are in the air now will not be destroyed provided that they are traveling away from Muland and land in a timely fashion. Otherwise unauthorized craft will be destroyed by our orbiting assets at our discretion. A bombardment of the known military bases of the United States is presently underway with the first bombs to fall in about four hours. The reparations to be paid by the United States to Adamantia will the subject of further announcements." <br />
:::Story by [[User:Farred|Farred]] 18:10, 9 September 2011 (UTC) <br />
::::My message is that one key unlocks both the potential for peaceful use of lunar resources and military use of lunar resources. That key is industrial development. Since we want the peaceful expansion of human capabilities but no expansion of warfare, we should unlock both and lock up the military potential again so it causes no harm. I believe international agreements to include monitoring of all colonies to continuously demonstrate their nonmilitary nature could be practical. Robot colonies would need to be open to inspection by the robot emissaries of other nations. When colonies are developed enough to support settlers, they would need to be open to inspection by human emissaries. There could be communist, capitalist, or any other economic system of colony, just no secret colonies. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:31, 10 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::::Some of this is covered in [[Geopolitics]]. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:30, 6 October 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Faults with the above story== <br />
There is no mention in the story of submarine launched ballistic missiles or submarine launched nuclear cruise missiles. It is conceivable that a sufficient military force in Low Earth Orbit could protect a nation from nuclear attack by bombers and ICBMs, but there is not much chance that Muland could protect itself from attack by United States nuclear armed submarines. Beyond that, the capabilities of a modern industrial nation to attack an enemy, when so desperate that there is no moral constraint, is something too sickening to think of much less write into a story. Incinerating millions of people with nuclear weapons is something that can be disposed of with 19 words in a story without having to think about it. <br />
<br />
I do not actually consider it likely that all the other nations of the Earth would let one nation have the moon to itself for fifty-two years without so much as sending a reconnaissance satellite to look at the far side of the moon. The infra-red emissions of the radiators of factories on the moon would be a tell tale sign that could not be hidden. <br />
<br />
The fact of military potential for Luna, Mars and the asteroids is an extra problem that space colonization proponents must deal with. It will not be a motivation for anyone to develop extraterrestrial resources. People will be just as satisfied to see that no one is developing the moon as to be able to inspect developments and ensure that they are not military; and no development is the cheaper option. We must sell lunar development as not only worth the cost of development but worth the cost of inspections as well. <br />
<br />
Just so no one is misled, the idea of international inspection of all extraterrestrial bases to ensure no military uses did not originate with me. In John G. Hemry's book "Against All Enemies,"(copyright 2006) which is set in space in the year 2102, he has the nations agreeing that no one can set up a base on a celestial body "without international approval, supervision, and inspection."(page 7) I would not approve of the well armed military spacecraft that Hemry has patrolling space to enforce this agreement. Also inspections would be sufficient without supervision. There would be plenty of time to destroy a colony that fails its inspections and refuses to repair its situation. It would take a long time for military development to reach the point of a dangerous threat. I do not claim that these ideas originated with Hemry either. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:52, 12 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:So, who could benefit from military resources on Luna if the resources could not protect a nation on Earth from nuclear attack? An entity that would exist entirely off the planet Earth could protect itself from any attack from Earth that I know of, by using a set of armed satellites to shoot down any attempt to launch to orbit from Earth. Of course my knowledge of anti satellite weaponry is far from complete. If anti satellite weapons could not break such a defense with today's state of the art, there is always the possibility of future developments. My guess is that Earth based treaties against weapons in space can and should prevent a military threat from space for hundreds of years. Eventually when the human population of outer space is more than double the population of Earth, the situation will become unstable. We can only hope that the transition to military forces in space is not catastrophic for human civilization. War in space will be an ugly thing. On Earth, if your city comes under attack, you can go hide in the woods and maybe give yourself up to whomever wins the war. On Luna or Mars if the city air recycling plant is broken in war, the citizens die. If the radiators necessary for cooling the colony are broken, the citizens die. The difference is the smaller chance for survivors in space war. <br />
<br />
:On Earth it is said that my right to swing my arm ends where my neighbor's nose begins. On Luna, rights to do as one pleases must take into account the need to demonstrate to Earth that Luna is indeed harmless. Earth's concerns will unavoidably dominate space colony concerns for very many years unless an interstellar planetoid the size of Vesta smashes into Earth without warning and leaves space colonies thereafter completely on their own. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:53, 14 September 2011 (UTC) <br />
<br />
::After polishing up my crystal ball and gazing intently at a few possible futures, I find that in about four hundred years there will be high volume low cost access to orbit from Earth. I will add a link to an article about that once I have written it. Heavy industry will have mostly moved off Earth and strategic military force as well. Political power and police forces will remain on the garden planet that Earth will become. At this time a violent change in the leadership of the military forces in space will be possible. Earth itself will not be targeted by weapons. Earth will be seen as the prize to be taken over by the victors, who will then take over political rule from Earth. As to why military forces would be removed from Earth, they would be sitting ducks if they remained on Earth. Once military questions are resolved in space, all left on Earth will either shout, "The king is dead. Long live the king." or they will congratulate the king at thwarting treason. (King is metaphorically government.) Whether there will be one or many governments for humanity in that distant future will depend upon 1> how strongly people gravitate to differing views of what constitutes the least evil form of government 2> how strongly people hold various incompatible cultural beliefs 3> how strongly people are affected by "We are good. They are bad." bias which is sometimes the focus of government propaganda. The focus of my crystal ball is poor in some areas. Just take my word for this. You would not want to be living in space during the time of a total space war. The governmental arrangement that I would think best would be a multi cultural multi economic system of governments that have arrangements for peacefully resolving disagreements. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 17:19, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sovereignty ==<br />
{| style="border-style:none;border-width:0px"<br />
| style="border-style:dashed; border-width:1px; border-color:#668B88;" | ''Start quote<br>It follows that, like Antarctica, all settlements must be under the auspices of a sovereign country that is a signature to the treaty.<br>End quote''<br />
|}<br />
<br />
Why?<br />
<br />
-- [[User:Mdelaney|Mdelaney]] 14:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Nation states wrote the current Moon treaties and so they wrote them to suit their needs. Lunar settlements now have to be under somebody's control and tax system.<br />
<br />
New treaties will be needed so anything could change, but it is unlikely that Google could found a Moon base without it being under some national sovereignty. It could be the USA, but it would be much cheaper to buy the use of some small country's flag. This is a common business practice.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Jriley|Jriley]] 15:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== John Reyes ==<br />
<br />
Do you think that Syria spying on dissidents?<br />
:I suppose you are indicating that your name is John Reyes. That is not quite the customary way of editing Lunarpedia. A section title should describe the subtopic of the section of a talk page, and the name or nickname of the contributor should be at the end of the contribution. While it seems a good guess to me that Syria spies on dissidents, I do not know what that has to do with the moon, which is the general topic for this website. My guess is that there is little likelihood that Syria has a space program of any kind, much less a lunar colonization plan. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:21, 17 December 2011 (UTC)</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Lunar_Bill_of_Rights&diff=17599Talk:Lunar Bill of Rights2012-04-25T21:57:45Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Right to bear and keep arms */ talk</p>
<hr />
<div>{|align=left<br />
|__TOC__<br />
|}<br />
<br><br><br />
<br><br><br />
<br><br><br />
'''Have your say here''' <br />
<br />
If this article does not start a lively conversation, nothing will. <br />
<br />
--[[User:Jriley|Jriley]] 07:58, 17 March 2007 (PDT) <br />
<br />
==Right to bear and keep arms==<br />
<br />
I know it will :-) Hehe! <br />
<br />
Let me start the ball rolling: <br />
<br />
:I fully support the right to keep and bear arms. I also fully support the right to defend your person, home, property or family against attackers, intruders, burglars and thieves. <br />
<br />
:I would be against allowing conventional ammunition for civilian use due to the danger it would pose to the pressure vessel. But there are special types of ammunition available. <br />
<br />
:In the early days, there will not be much need for law enforcement or even self defense, but as the settlements grow things might change somewhat. But this is not the wild west we're talking about, this will be a very tightly sealed environment, and there are no animals to hunt or defend ourselves from. So I must ask the question "Will civilian held guns be necessary at all?". <br />
<br />
:In answer to that I have to look at countries where guns are illegal and theoretically unobtainable. In a number of those countries, only the criminals (and a few police) have guns. Interestingly, gun crime is on the rise in those countries. <br />
<br />
-- [[User:Mdelaney|Mdelaney]] 03:27, 04 April 2007 (BST)<br />
<br />
:Surviving on the moon means a change in the human behavior. Social Darwinism says that behaviors that do not help preserve/increase the gene pool would be ostracized (examples from the history of human civilization: Homosexuality, Incest...)<br />
<br />
:Guns, violence are something that have to be ostracized. Not a utopia, but also economics and private property will change in the moon... If we look back at the development of capitalism and we compare the capitalism of today with the capitalism of 100 years ago there are differences... Do we want to export to the moon the same system?<br />
<br />
:Therefore, guns and violence, self defense, private property will be different on the Moon... The point is to think what we want to do with it. We could channel the Lunar constitution to avoid such things as guns...<br />
<br />
:I am not American, but I know that we can live without them... Prior to my first week in America I hadn't seen a gun in my life... I was really scared when I saw one for the first time... I was 21 and the gun was in a policeman's holster...<br />
<br />
:I do not understand why other countries can live without guns and Americans can't... It is simply a matter of decide what kind of civilization we want to export... We could export the guns civilization or we can just prevent that from happening...<br />
<br />
:History will tell the guns story on the moon...----[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 08:56, 25 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::There is some history that led to the right to bear arms in the United States. In England the monarchy passed from the House of Stewart to the House of Hanover. The Jacobite Rebellions attempted to put the House of Stewart back on the throne. After the failure of the rising of 1715 the government confiscated weapons of the Stewart supporters. This left them unable to defend themselves against bandits who lived in the highlands and raided anyone seen as having reasonably moveable items of wealth, like cows, sheep, and gold coins. Weapons in the American colonies were used for hunting which was an economically important source of food. Settlers also banded together occasionally to fight off the aboriginal inhabitants. All of this tended to lend a favorable light to the ownership of weapons, and the constitutional amendment guaranteeing the right to bear arms. <br />
::These things do not have such significance for a moon colony but it is hard to enforce laws against all weapons. Modifications to various sorts of nail guns can result in weapons that fire nails. A machine shop might not be able to equal modern factory made weapons, but if the mass produced product is unavailable rough machine shop made weapons could be the most effective guns around. People who want to violate a law often find ways of doing so. If there comes to be any motive for criminals to have guns on Luna, it would be hard to block every means of acquiring them. People might want to be prepared. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:08, 25 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Again, there might not be a need to enforce a law against weapons. As society evolves on the moon --with a new set of methods of production, a different capitalism (or post capitalism), a different economy... society might evolve. They might not be a need for guns or violence...<br />
<br />
::Certainly, we do not know... It can also happen that Moon's culture might turn even more violent than Earth's... All we can do is just to steer their society into a non violent one... Education will play a huge part in the future of Moon Citizen's... If the first settlers are non violent and have a non-gun background they could slow the process of human nature... --[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 21:57, 25 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Lunar citizens versus Flags of Convenience== <br />
<br />
So which will it be, Lunar citizens or Flags of Convenience? We do not need both. If the Moon is a nation-state, then it will have jurisdiction, and flags of convenience will not apply. On the other hand, if the Moon is an international entity governed jointly by, say the United Nations, then there will be no such thing as a lunar citizens, all humans on the Moon will be citizens of one or more terrestrial countries, and the Moon will be covered with flags of convenience. So which is it? If the Moon is not a nation state, then the bill of rights means nothing, all persons will be governed by the laws of their home country and the United Nations treaties of 1967 and 1979 etc. <br />
[[User:Cfrjlr|Charles F. Radley]] 19:47, 3 April 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
:I've been slowly coming to the conclusion that a world government for any world of significant size, which Luna most certainly qualifies for, is either a really bad idea, or just another variant on Niven's "It was raining on Mongo that morning" problem (or both). There probably will be both flags of convenience and non-Earth citizenship, just not in the same territory. I happen to know I'm far from alone in wanting to be in the latter rather than the former -- the ancient Greek colonial model may be the optimal one: Athens may have founded the colony, but the colony is set up as an independent city-state. <br />
<br />
:Furthermore, I believe we should have as many competing models of how to structure a society in place as possible, from attempts at stable hippie-style communes to anarcho-capitalist havens to highly centralized bastions of order above all else (and plenty of things in betwixt -- and anyone who knows me knows which of those three polar cases I would choose...). Rather than have the socialists, moral conservatives, libertarians, et c. at each other's throats, let's have them set up independently with no expectations of controlling each other. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 03:05, 4 April 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
:Wasn't the hippie-style commune based loosely on the kibbutz? -- [[User:Mdelaney|Mdelaney]] 18:27, 04 April 2007 (BST)<br />
<br />
::The cost of setting up a colony on Luna that pays its own way will be enormous. A colony or colonies will be on Luna by the agreement of all major industrial nations on Earth, or there will be no colony. Neither the United States nor Russia nor China nor the European Union will tolerate a hostile colony on Luna because such a colony could gain military domination of the whole Earth from space. The extreme vulnerability of such a colony during the long developmental period gives any of those entities the power to unilaterally destroy it before it becomes a problem. We need to keep the agreement on a nonmilitary moon and establish the monitoring system to ensure compliance. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:50, 11 August 2011 (UTC) <br />
:::In order to communicate more clearly the possibility of military domination of Earth from the moon and avoid suggesting that any particular nation would want to do this, I introduce a simpleminded bit of science fiction in which two new nations are added to those on Earth. I replace the Bahamas with the island nation of Adamantia, located in the North Atlantic and about the size of England and France combined. I place Muland in the South Pacific half way between New Zeeland and Easter Island and about half the size of Libya. Both of these countries stayed neutral during most of World War II. Adamantia declared war on both Germany and Japan in August of 1944 with Muland following suit in September of 1944. <br />
:::Having established these nations in Geography and History, I ignore most of history as irrelevant to the story and only describe Adamantia's keen interest in space exploration. It failed to acquire any German rocket scientists during WW II, but managed to reach Luna anyway sending a robot probe that landed in August of 1975. Making great efforts, Adamantia sent 3 or 4 robot missions to Luna every year and shared with the world photographs of magnificent desolation in great detail including photographs of abandoned robot probes which seemed to fail rather regularly. The United states, the Soviet Union, and Western European countries decided to ignore Adamantia's wasteful obsession and concentrated on satellites in Earth orbit to the extent that they had any interest in outer space at all. This continued until May of 2027 when United States Strategic Air Command took note of radar echoes indicating spacecraft appearing from behind the Moon. <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Those Adamantian bastards have been hiding an army behind the moon." <br />
:::General Bricksides: "We have satellites failing all over the sky. This is not merely a coincidence. Radar is picking up a very regular meteor shower of the pellets that miss satellites and hit the atmosphere." <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Those spacecraft have trajectories aimed at skimming the atmosphere. They must want to aerobrake to acquire LEO." <br />
:::General Bricksides: "We have got to pound Adamantia now. If we wait they will have weapons in orbit that can stop anything we send." <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Get targeting for all of our ICBMs switched to Adamantia. See what we have that can target those incoming spacecraft. I am on the hot line to the President." <br />
:::Hot line: "The Vice President of the United States will be speaking to you momentarily, sir." <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Damn, not Seymour." <br />
:::Vice President Seymour Milquetoast: "I heard that General Blackfoot. Now, what is the national emergency?" <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Sir, The United States is under attack from the nation of Adamantia. Our satellites are being destroyed along with those of all other nations. Adamantian spacecraft are headed to take up position in Low Earth Orbit from which it is expected they could stop all airborne attacks against their nation. We must counter attack now while we have the chance. A robot army in orbit will not do them any good if they are all dead." <br />
:::Vice President: "General, I find this hard to believe. We have friendly relations with Adamantia. There has never been a previous report about them being a major military threat. Couldn't those spacecraft belong to someone else?" <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Sir, only Adamantia has been sending spacecraft regularly to the moon. Apparently they did more than photograph craters and chemically analyze rocks. They must have established factories and built those spacecraft." <br />
:::Vice President: "You say they built factories on the moon that they used to build spacecraft on the moon? How would they ever launch them? There is no rocket fuel on the moon. Adamantia could not have sent up enough rocket fuel to launch a significant military force." <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Sir, They must have found a way to launch them (See: [[List of Propulsion Systems]]) because we see them on radar. Adamantia is the only country up there. They must be behind the spacecraft."<br />
:::Vice President: "In about five hours the president will be available, in the mean time I have been ordered to act in his behalf. I will have the State Department contact Adamantia to find out what they know about this. It could be extraterrestrials are invading. I authorize attacking the unknown spacecraft, but take no action against Adamantia at this time. I am convening a meeting of the military emergency team for two hours from now. They should have analysis prepared by then." <br />
:::SOUND OF GUNSHOT <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "It seems as though we have had a communications equipment failure. Robert, you have two things to do. Arrest me for damage of government property and bomb the stuffing out of Adamantia. <br />
:::General Bricksides: "General Blackfoot, considering your admission of damaging government property I am busting you to brigadier effective tomorrow, pending review by court martial when we have time to convene one. Meanwhile we have planes and missiles to launch. <br />
:::So the first wave of the attack against Adamantia turned it into rubble. The second wave made the rubble bounce. <br />
:::After two days Generals Blackfoot and Bricksides were in prison when the radio announcement came from Muland: "We deeply regret the unprovoked attack of the United States against our ally Adamantia. Luckily a sizable number of the leaders were visiting Muland on business at the time and have survived. Considering the violent state of international relations at this time we declare a world wide prohibition of launching any aircraft or rockets without prior permission from the Department of Air Security of Muland. Craft that are in the air now will not be destroyed provided that they are traveling away from Muland and land in a timely fashion. Otherwise unauthorized craft will be destroyed by our orbiting assets at our discretion. A bombardment of the known military bases of the United States is presently underway with the first bombs to fall in about four hours. The reparations to be paid by the United States to Adamantia will the subject of further announcements." <br />
:::Story by [[User:Farred|Farred]] 18:10, 9 September 2011 (UTC) <br />
::::My message is that one key unlocks both the potential for peaceful use of lunar resources and military use of lunar resources. That key is industrial development. Since we want the peaceful expansion of human capabilities but no expansion of warfare, we should unlock both and lock up the military potential again so it causes no harm. I believe international agreements to include monitoring of all colonies to continuously demonstrate their nonmilitary nature could be practical. Robot colonies would need to be open to inspection by the robot emissaries of other nations. When colonies are developed enough to support settlers, they would need to be open to inspection by human emissaries. There could be communist, capitalist, or any other economic system of colony, just no secret colonies. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:31, 10 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::::Some of this is covered in [[Geopolitics]]. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:30, 6 October 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Faults with the above story== <br />
There is no mention in the story of submarine launched ballistic missiles or submarine launched nuclear cruise missiles. It is conceivable that a sufficient military force in Low Earth Orbit could protect a nation from nuclear attack by bombers and ICBMs, but there is not much chance that Muland could protect itself from attack by United States nuclear armed submarines. Beyond that, the capabilities of a modern industrial nation to attack an enemy, when so desperate that there is no moral constraint, is something too sickening to think of much less write into a story. Incinerating millions of people with nuclear weapons is something that can be disposed of with 19 words in a story without having to think about it. <br />
<br />
I do not actually consider it likely that all the other nations of the Earth would let one nation have the moon to itself for fifty-two years without so much as sending a reconnaissance satellite to look at the far side of the moon. The infra-red emissions of the radiators of factories on the moon would be a tell tale sign that could not be hidden. <br />
<br />
The fact of military potential for Luna, Mars and the asteroids is an extra problem that space colonization proponents must deal with. It will not be a motivation for anyone to develop extraterrestrial resources. People will be just as satisfied to see that no one is developing the moon as to be able to inspect developments and ensure that they are not military; and no development is the cheaper option. We must sell lunar development as not only worth the cost of development but worth the cost of inspections as well. <br />
<br />
Just so no one is misled, the idea of international inspection of all extraterrestrial bases to ensure no military uses did not originate with me. In John G. Hemry's book "Against All Enemies,"(copyright 2006) which is set in space in the year 2102, he has the nations agreeing that no one can set up a base on a celestial body "without international approval, supervision, and inspection."(page 7) I would not approve of the well armed military spacecraft that Hemry has patrolling space to enforce this agreement. Also inspections would be sufficient without supervision. There would be plenty of time to destroy a colony that fails its inspections and refuses to repair its situation. It would take a long time for military development to reach the point of a dangerous threat. I do not claim that these ideas originated with Hemry either. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:52, 12 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:So, who could benefit from military resources on Luna if the resources could not protect a nation on Earth from nuclear attack? An entity that would exist entirely off the planet Earth could protect itself from any attack from Earth that I know of, by using a set of armed satellites to shoot down any attempt to launch to orbit from Earth. Of course my knowledge of anti satellite weaponry is far from complete. If anti satellite weapons could not break such a defense with today's state of the art, there is always the possibility of future developments. My guess is that Earth based treaties against weapons in space can and should prevent a military threat from space for hundreds of years. Eventually when the human population of outer space is more than double the population of Earth, the situation will become unstable. We can only hope that the transition to military forces in space is not catastrophic for human civilization. War in space will be an ugly thing. On Earth, if your city comes under attack, you can go hide in the woods and maybe give yourself up to whomever wins the war. On Luna or Mars if the city air recycling plant is broken in war, the citizens die. If the radiators necessary for cooling the colony are broken, the citizens die. The difference is the smaller chance for survivors in space war. <br />
<br />
:On Earth it is said that my right to swing my arm ends where my neighbor's nose begins. On Luna, rights to do as one pleases must take into account the need to demonstrate to Earth that Luna is indeed harmless. Earth's concerns will unavoidably dominate space colony concerns for very many years unless an interstellar planetoid the size of Vesta smashes into Earth without warning and leaves space colonies thereafter completely on their own. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:53, 14 September 2011 (UTC) <br />
<br />
::After polishing up my crystal ball and gazing intently at a few possible futures, I find that in about four hundred years there will be high volume low cost access to orbit from Earth. I will add a link to an article about that once I have written it. Heavy industry will have mostly moved off Earth and strategic military force as well. Political power and police forces will remain on the garden planet that Earth will become. At this time a violent change in the leadership of the military forces in space will be possible. Earth itself will not be targeted by weapons. Earth will be seen as the prize to be taken over by the victors, who will then take over political rule from Earth. As to why military forces would be removed from Earth, they would be sitting ducks if they remained on Earth. Once military questions are resolved in space, all left on Earth will either shout, "The king is dead. Long live the king." or they will congratulate the king at thwarting treason. (King is metaphorically government.) Whether there will be one or many governments for humanity in that distant future will depend upon 1> how strongly people gravitate to differing views of what constitutes the least evil form of government 2> how strongly people hold various incompatible cultural beliefs 3> how strongly people are affected by "We are good. They are bad." bias which is sometimes the focus of government propaganda. The focus of my crystal ball is poor in some areas. Just take my word for this. You would not want to be living in space during the time of a total space war. The governmental arrangement that I would think best would be a multi cultural multi economic system of governments that have arrangements for peacefully resolving disagreements. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 17:19, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sovereignty ==<br />
{| style="border-style:none;border-width:0px"<br />
| style="border-style:dashed; border-width:1px; border-color:#668B88;" | ''Start quote<br>It follows that, like Antarctica, all settlements must be under the auspices of a sovereign country that is a signature to the treaty.<br>End quote''<br />
|}<br />
<br />
Why?<br />
<br />
-- [[User:Mdelaney|Mdelaney]] 14:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Nation states wrote the current Moon treaties and so they wrote them to suit their needs. Lunar settlements now have to be under somebody's control and tax system.<br />
<br />
New treaties will be needed so anything could change, but it is unlikely that Google could found a Moon base without it being under some national sovereignty. It could be the USA, but it would be much cheaper to buy the use of some small country's flag. This is a common business practice.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Jriley|Jriley]] 15:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== John Reyes ==<br />
<br />
Do you think that Syria spying on dissidents?<br />
:I suppose you are indicating that your name is John Reyes. That is not quite the customary way of editing Lunarpedia. A section title should describe the subtopic of the section of a talk page, and the name or nickname of the contributor should be at the end of the contribution. While it seems a good guess to me that Syria spies on dissidents, I do not know what that has to do with the moon, which is the general topic for this website. My guess is that there is little likelihood that Syria has a space program of any kind, much less a lunar colonization plan. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:21, 17 December 2011 (UTC)</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Lunar_Bill_of_Rights&diff=17593Talk:Lunar Bill of Rights2012-04-25T08:56:14Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Right to bear and keep arms */ Adding comment</p>
<hr />
<div>{|align=left<br />
|__TOC__<br />
|}<br />
<br><br><br />
<br><br><br />
<br><br><br />
'''Have your say here''' <br />
<br />
If this article does not start a lively conversation, nothing will. <br />
<br />
--[[User:Jriley|Jriley]] 07:58, 17 March 2007 (PDT) <br />
<br />
==Right to bear and keep arms==<br />
<br />
I know it will :-) Hehe! <br />
<br />
Let me start the ball rolling: <br />
<br />
:I fully support the right to keep and bear arms. I also fully support the right to defend your person, home, property or family against attackers, intruders, burglars and thieves. <br />
<br />
:I would be against allowing conventional ammunition for civilian use due to the danger it would pose to the pressure vessel. But there are special types of ammunition available. <br />
<br />
:In the early days, there will not be much need for law enforcement or even self defense, but as the settlements grow things might change somewhat. But this is not the wild west we're talking about, this will be a very tightly sealed environment, and there are no animals to hunt or defend ourselves from. So I must ask the question "Will civilian held guns be necessary at all?". <br />
<br />
:In answer to that I have to look at countries where guns are illegal and theoretically unobtainable. In a number of those countries, only the criminals (and a few police) have guns. Interestingly, gun crime is on the rise in those countries. <br />
<br />
-- [[User:Mdelaney|Mdelaney]] 03:27, 04 April 2007 (BST)<br />
<br />
Surviving on the moon means a change in the human behavior. Social Darwinism says that behaviors that do not help preserve/increase the gene pool would be ostracized (examples from the history of human civilization: Homosexuality, Incest...)<br />
<br />
Guns, violence are something that have to be ostracized. Not a utopia, but also economics and private property will change in the moon... If we look back at the development of capitalism and we compare the capitalism of today with the capitalism of 100 years ago there are differences... Do we want to export to the moon the same system?<br />
<br />
Therefore, guns and violence, self defense, private property will be different on the Moon... The point is to think what we want to do with it. We could channel the Lunar constitution to avoid such things as guns...<br />
<br />
I am not American, but I know that we can live without them... Prior to my first week in America I hadn't seen a gun in my life... I was really scared when I saw one for the first time... I was 21 and the gun was in a policeman's holster...<br />
<br />
I do not understand why other countries can live without guns and Americans can't... It is simply a matter of decide what kind of civilization we want to export... We could export the guns civilization or we can just prevent that from happening...<br />
<br />
History will tell the guns story on the moon...----[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 08:56, 25 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Lunar citizens versus Flags of Convenience== <br />
<br />
So which will it be, Lunar citizens or Flags of Convenience? We do not need both. If the Moon is a nation-state, then it will have jurisdiction, and flags of convenience will not apply. On the other hand, if the Moon is an international entity governed jointly by, say the United Nations, then there will be no such thing as a lunar citizens, all humans on the Moon will be citizens of one or more terrestrial countries, and the Moon will be covered with flags of convenience. So which is it? If the Moon is not a nation state, then the bill of rights means nothing, all persons will be governed by the laws of their home country and the United Nations treaties of 1967 and 1979 etc. <br />
[[User:Cfrjlr|Charles F. Radley]] 19:47, 3 April 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
:I've been slowly coming to the conclusion that a world government for any world of significant size, which Luna most certainly qualifies for, is either a really bad idea, or just another variant on Niven's "It was raining on Mongo that morning" problem (or both). There probably will be both flags of convenience and non-Earth citizenship, just not in the same territory. I happen to know I'm far from alone in wanting to be in the latter rather than the former -- the ancient Greek colonial model may be the optimal one: Athens may have founded the colony, but the colony is set up as an independent city-state. <br />
<br />
:Furthermore, I believe we should have as many competing models of how to structure a society in place as possible, from attempts at stable hippie-style communes to anarcho-capitalist havens to highly centralized bastions of order above all else (and plenty of things in betwixt -- and anyone who knows me knows which of those three polar cases I would choose...). Rather than have the socialists, moral conservatives, libertarians, et c. at each other's throats, let's have them set up independently with no expectations of controlling each other. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 03:05, 4 April 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
:Wasn't the hippie-style commune based loosely on the kibbutz? -- [[User:Mdelaney|Mdelaney]] 18:27, 04 April 2007 (BST)<br />
<br />
::The cost of setting up a colony on Luna that pays its own way will be enormous. A colony or colonies will be on Luna by the agreement of all major industrial nations on Earth, or there will be no colony. Neither the United States nor Russia nor China nor the European Union will tolerate a hostile colony on Luna because such a colony could gain military domination of the whole Earth from space. The extreme vulnerability of such a colony during the long developmental period gives any of those entities the power to unilaterally destroy it before it becomes a problem. We need to keep the agreement on a nonmilitary moon and establish the monitoring system to ensure compliance. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 07:50, 11 August 2011 (UTC) <br />
:::In order to communicate more clearly the possibility of military domination of Earth from the moon and avoid suggesting that any particular nation would want to do this, I introduce a simpleminded bit of science fiction in which two new nations are added to those on Earth. I replace the Bahamas with the island nation of Adamantia, located in the North Atlantic and about the size of England and France combined. I place Muland in the South Pacific half way between New Zeeland and Easter Island and about half the size of Libya. Both of these countries stayed neutral during most of World War II. Adamantia declared war on both Germany and Japan in August of 1944 with Muland following suit in September of 1944. <br />
:::Having established these nations in Geography and History, I ignore most of history as irrelevant to the story and only describe Adamantia's keen interest in space exploration. It failed to acquire any German rocket scientists during WW II, but managed to reach Luna anyway sending a robot probe that landed in August of 1975. Making great efforts, Adamantia sent 3 or 4 robot missions to Luna every year and shared with the world photographs of magnificent desolation in great detail including photographs of abandoned robot probes which seemed to fail rather regularly. The United states, the Soviet Union, and Western European countries decided to ignore Adamantia's wasteful obsession and concentrated on satellites in Earth orbit to the extent that they had any interest in outer space at all. This continued until May of 2027 when United States Strategic Air Command took note of radar echoes indicating spacecraft appearing from behind the Moon. <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Those Adamantian bastards have been hiding an army behind the moon." <br />
:::General Bricksides: "We have satellites failing all over the sky. This is not merely a coincidence. Radar is picking up a very regular meteor shower of the pellets that miss satellites and hit the atmosphere." <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Those spacecraft have trajectories aimed at skimming the atmosphere. They must want to aerobrake to acquire LEO." <br />
:::General Bricksides: "We have got to pound Adamantia now. If we wait they will have weapons in orbit that can stop anything we send." <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Get targeting for all of our ICBMs switched to Adamantia. See what we have that can target those incoming spacecraft. I am on the hot line to the President." <br />
:::Hot line: "The Vice President of the United States will be speaking to you momentarily, sir." <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Damn, not Seymour." <br />
:::Vice President Seymour Milquetoast: "I heard that General Blackfoot. Now, what is the national emergency?" <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Sir, The United States is under attack from the nation of Adamantia. Our satellites are being destroyed along with those of all other nations. Adamantian spacecraft are headed to take up position in Low Earth Orbit from which it is expected they could stop all airborne attacks against their nation. We must counter attack now while we have the chance. A robot army in orbit will not do them any good if they are all dead." <br />
:::Vice President: "General, I find this hard to believe. We have friendly relations with Adamantia. There has never been a previous report about them being a major military threat. Couldn't those spacecraft belong to someone else?" <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Sir, only Adamantia has been sending spacecraft regularly to the moon. Apparently they did more than photograph craters and chemically analyze rocks. They must have established factories and built those spacecraft." <br />
:::Vice President: "You say they built factories on the moon that they used to build spacecraft on the moon? How would they ever launch them? There is no rocket fuel on the moon. Adamantia could not have sent up enough rocket fuel to launch a significant military force." <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "Sir, They must have found a way to launch them (See: [[List of Propulsion Systems]]) because we see them on radar. Adamantia is the only country up there. They must be behind the spacecraft."<br />
:::Vice President: "In about five hours the president will be available, in the mean time I have been ordered to act in his behalf. I will have the State Department contact Adamantia to find out what they know about this. It could be extraterrestrials are invading. I authorize attacking the unknown spacecraft, but take no action against Adamantia at this time. I am convening a meeting of the military emergency team for two hours from now. They should have analysis prepared by then." <br />
:::SOUND OF GUNSHOT <br />
:::General Blackfoot: "It seems as though we have had a communications equipment failure. Robert, you have two things to do. Arrest me for damage of government property and bomb the stuffing out of Adamantia. <br />
:::General Bricksides: "General Blackfoot, considering your admission of damaging government property I am busting you to brigadier effective tomorrow, pending review by court martial when we have time to convene one. Meanwhile we have planes and missiles to launch. <br />
:::So the first wave of the attack against Adamantia turned it into rubble. The second wave made the rubble bounce. <br />
:::After two days Generals Blackfoot and Bricksides were in prison when the radio announcement came from Muland: "We deeply regret the unprovoked attack of the United States against our ally Adamantia. Luckily a sizable number of the leaders were visiting Muland on business at the time and have survived. Considering the violent state of international relations at this time we declare a world wide prohibition of launching any aircraft or rockets without prior permission from the Department of Air Security of Muland. Craft that are in the air now will not be destroyed provided that they are traveling away from Muland and land in a timely fashion. Otherwise unauthorized craft will be destroyed by our orbiting assets at our discretion. A bombardment of the known military bases of the United States is presently underway with the first bombs to fall in about four hours. The reparations to be paid by the United States to Adamantia will the subject of further announcements." <br />
:::Story by [[User:Farred|Farred]] 18:10, 9 September 2011 (UTC) <br />
::::My message is that one key unlocks both the potential for peaceful use of lunar resources and military use of lunar resources. That key is industrial development. Since we want the peaceful expansion of human capabilities but no expansion of warfare, we should unlock both and lock up the military potential again so it causes no harm. I believe international agreements to include monitoring of all colonies to continuously demonstrate their nonmilitary nature could be practical. Robot colonies would need to be open to inspection by the robot emissaries of other nations. When colonies are developed enough to support settlers, they would need to be open to inspection by human emissaries. There could be communist, capitalist, or any other economic system of colony, just no secret colonies. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:31, 10 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:::::Some of this is covered in [[Geopolitics]]. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 21:30, 6 October 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Faults with the above story== <br />
There is no mention in the story of submarine launched ballistic missiles or submarine launched nuclear cruise missiles. It is conceivable that a sufficient military force in Low Earth Orbit could protect a nation from nuclear attack by bombers and ICBMs, but there is not much chance that Muland could protect itself from attack by United States nuclear armed submarines. Beyond that, the capabilities of a modern industrial nation to attack an enemy, when so desperate that there is no moral constraint, is something too sickening to think of much less write into a story. Incinerating millions of people with nuclear weapons is something that can be disposed of with 19 words in a story without having to think about it. <br />
<br />
I do not actually consider it likely that all the other nations of the Earth would let one nation have the moon to itself for fifty-two years without so much as sending a reconnaissance satellite to look at the far side of the moon. The infra-red emissions of the radiators of factories on the moon would be a tell tale sign that could not be hidden. <br />
<br />
The fact of military potential for Luna, Mars and the asteroids is an extra problem that space colonization proponents must deal with. It will not be a motivation for anyone to develop extraterrestrial resources. People will be just as satisfied to see that no one is developing the moon as to be able to inspect developments and ensure that they are not military; and no development is the cheaper option. We must sell lunar development as not only worth the cost of development but worth the cost of inspections as well. <br />
<br />
Just so no one is misled, the idea of international inspection of all extraterrestrial bases to ensure no military uses did not originate with me. In John G. Hemry's book "Against All Enemies,"(copyright 2006) which is set in space in the year 2102, he has the nations agreeing that no one can set up a base on a celestial body "without international approval, supervision, and inspection."(page 7) I would not approve of the well armed military spacecraft that Hemry has patrolling space to enforce this agreement. Also inspections would be sufficient without supervision. There would be plenty of time to destroy a colony that fails its inspections and refuses to repair its situation. It would take a long time for military development to reach the point of a dangerous threat. I do not claim that these ideas originated with Hemry either. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:52, 12 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
:So, who could benefit from military resources on Luna if the resources could not protect a nation on Earth from nuclear attack? An entity that would exist entirely off the planet Earth could protect itself from any attack from Earth that I know of, by using a set of armed satellites to shoot down any attempt to launch to orbit from Earth. Of course my knowledge of anti satellite weaponry is far from complete. If anti satellite weapons could not break such a defense with today's state of the art, there is always the possibility of future developments. My guess is that Earth based treaties against weapons in space can and should prevent a military threat from space for hundreds of years. Eventually when the human population of outer space is more than double the population of Earth, the situation will become unstable. We can only hope that the transition to military forces in space is not catastrophic for human civilization. War in space will be an ugly thing. On Earth, if your city comes under attack, you can go hide in the woods and maybe give yourself up to whomever wins the war. On Luna or Mars if the city air recycling plant is broken in war, the citizens die. If the radiators necessary for cooling the colony are broken, the citizens die. The difference is the smaller chance for survivors in space war. <br />
<br />
:On Earth it is said that my right to swing my arm ends where my neighbor's nose begins. On Luna, rights to do as one pleases must take into account the need to demonstrate to Earth that Luna is indeed harmless. Earth's concerns will unavoidably dominate space colony concerns for very many years unless an interstellar planetoid the size of Vesta smashes into Earth without warning and leaves space colonies thereafter completely on their own. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 20:53, 14 September 2011 (UTC) <br />
<br />
::After polishing up my crystal ball and gazing intently at a few possible futures, I find that in about four hundred years there will be high volume low cost access to orbit from Earth. I will add a link to an article about that once I have written it. Heavy industry will have mostly moved off Earth and strategic military force as well. Political power and police forces will remain on the garden planet that Earth will become. At this time a violent change in the leadership of the military forces in space will be possible. Earth itself will not be targeted by weapons. Earth will be seen as the prize to be taken over by the victors, who will then take over political rule from Earth. As to why military forces would be removed from Earth, they would be sitting ducks if they remained on Earth. Once military questions are resolved in space, all left on Earth will either shout, "The king is dead. Long live the king." or they will congratulate the king at thwarting treason. (King is metaphorically government.) Whether there will be one or many governments for humanity in that distant future will depend upon 1> how strongly people gravitate to differing views of what constitutes the least evil form of government 2> how strongly people hold various incompatible cultural beliefs 3> how strongly people are affected by "We are good. They are bad." bias which is sometimes the focus of government propaganda. The focus of my crystal ball is poor in some areas. Just take my word for this. You would not want to be living in space during the time of a total space war. The governmental arrangement that I would think best would be a multi cultural multi economic system of governments that have arrangements for peacefully resolving disagreements. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 17:19, 17 September 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Sovereignty ==<br />
{| style="border-style:none;border-width:0px"<br />
| style="border-style:dashed; border-width:1px; border-color:#668B88;" | ''Start quote<br>It follows that, like Antarctica, all settlements must be under the auspices of a sovereign country that is a signature to the treaty.<br>End quote''<br />
|}<br />
<br />
Why?<br />
<br />
-- [[User:Mdelaney|Mdelaney]] 14:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Nation states wrote the current Moon treaties and so they wrote them to suit their needs. Lunar settlements now have to be under somebody's control and tax system.<br />
<br />
New treaties will be needed so anything could change, but it is unlikely that Google could found a Moon base without it being under some national sovereignty. It could be the USA, but it would be much cheaper to buy the use of some small country's flag. This is a common business practice.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Jriley|Jriley]] 15:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== John Reyes ==<br />
<br />
Do you think that Syria spying on dissidents?<br />
:I suppose you are indicating that your name is John Reyes. That is not quite the customary way of editing Lunarpedia. A section title should describe the subtopic of the section of a talk page, and the name or nickname of the contributor should be at the end of the contribution. While it seems a good guess to me that Syria spies on dissidents, I do not know what that has to do with the moon, which is the general topic for this website. My guess is that there is little likelihood that Syria has a space program of any kind, much less a lunar colonization plan. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 19:21, 17 December 2011 (UTC)</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Lunar_Bill_of_Rights&diff=17592Lunar Bill of Rights2012-04-25T08:53:53Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Right to bear and keep arms */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Debate}} <br />
<br />
{|align=right<br />
|__TOC__<br />
|}<br />
<br />
<font size=5> A Bill of Rights for Lunar Settlers </font><br />
----<br />
<br />
All the people who live on the Moon will need a clear statement of their rights as lunar citizens. This is particularly important in view of the many bad visions of space settlement that have so far been presented to the public, for example in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and "Outland". <br />
<br />
<br />
==A Charter== <br />
<br />
A bill of rights must be a key part of any settlement's charter. The present expectation is that the charter for the Moon will be based on the current international treaties for Antarctica. <br />
<br />
It follows that, like Antarctica, all settlements must be under the auspices of a sovereign country that is a signature to the treaty. The United States will be able to establish a settlement but a private company could not do so directly. Companies could operate under the United States charter. <br />
<br />
It is therefore reasonable to start with the American Bill of Rights to develop a Lunar Bill of Rights. <br />
<br />
<br />
===Flag of Convenience=== <br />
<br />
It is quite possible that once the research work is well advanced and lunar mining becomes a viable commercial venture, we may see lunar settlements under flags of convenience. Small countries, with no space capability of their own, may serve as cover for international corporations. We could see a lunar settlement under the Panamanian Flag. This is a common practice for ships. The country would receive fees and taxes. The corporation would receive legitimacy, low taxes, and firm control of the operation. Also in the event of a catastrophe, the company liability will be limited strictly to its lunar resources. <br />
<br />
This is another reason we need to establish the Lunar Bill of Rights early.<br />
<br />
==Articles== <br />
<br />
Following the American Bill of Rights, here are a few suggestions for a Lunar Bill of Rights: <br />
<br />
<br />
===Freedom of Religion, Speech, and the Right to petition=== <br />
<br />
====Religion==== <br />
<br />
Having a right to religion, or to no religion, will help insure diversity in the lunar population. The mining operations needs to be a 24 hour / 365 day operation. Different people observing different Sabbaths and holidays will complicate work scheduling. In some ways it may help if people cover each others off time needs in a team effort. <br />
<br />
====Speech==== <br />
<br />
Freedom of speech is likely to be mostly about free, bidirectional communication with Earth. If the government or the company can control that then they can spin problems any way they want. One possibility is to have Ham radio links back to Earth that are the strict property of the citizens. <br />
<br />
====Assembly==== <br />
<br />
Meeting rooms are likely to be very few and far between on the Moon and the security system will be automatically monitoring all such places. Privacy for a meeting may be a serious problem. <br />
<br />
The right to assemble peaceably will certainly include the right to organize a union, although the right to strike may be severely restricted, as it now is with government employees.<br />
<br />
===Right to bear and keep arms=== <br />
<sub>See [[Weapons]]</sub> <br />
<br />
The lunar culture might be very different from anything we had on Earth. Therefore, weapons might be banned on the moon. As the population increases and gets less heavily controlled and pre-selected, the more the problematic aspects of nature might become unavoidable. When this happens, '''weapons might become necessary''' to give people power to prevent a tyrannic government, defend private property, enforce law, etc.<br />
<br />
Several romantic views of the Lunar settlement forecast a Chief Security Officer like a Sheriff (See [[People on the Moon]]) and military trained selenites. This security officer would retain all guns and explosive in a locked facility. A number of other workers would voluntarily under go training and serve as first responders in emergencies supporting the Sheriff. The Posse members, and they alone, would be licensed to carry guns and then only under the direct control of the Sheriff.<br />
<br />
===Unreasonable searches and seizures=== <br />
<br />
If the government or company owns all the buildings, and the computer equipment, and all the means of productions, what do you own? <br />
<br />
It is clear that people have a reasonable expectation of privacy in their own room no mater who owns the building. They certainly would have an expectation of privacy for electronic files on a device that you carry on your person (like your Personal in What [[People Carry]]). The problem will come in areas were you share information with others on company computers and need public facilities for private purposes. These rules need to be very clearly worked out. <br />
<br />
The owning of property can also be a problem given the extreme high cost of bringing anything from Earth. Will paying the cost of transport from Earth define ownership? Will the settlers be entitled to periodic small personal shipments at company expense? <br />
<br />
A successful lunar colony will produce building materials locally. Buildings built by colonists in their own time with locally produced materials purchased on Luna from one of a number of companies and built on land assigned to the colonists for their own use would be their own property under sponsorship from one of the colonizing nations. Property taxes could apply.<br />
<br />
===Right to a fair trial=== <br />
<br />
Several of the of the articles deal with a right to a fair trial. We will need to establish rules for jurisdiction in legal maters. Almost certainly this will define the settler's relationship to specific Earth courts. The flag the settlement flies may be important here. <br />
<br />
===Right to Transportation to Earth===<br />
<br />
This right would limit the pressure that an employer could put on an employee, and allow for a way to deal with trouble makers. The trip Earthside could be enforced for cause. An employee on Luna would need to be worth a round trip ticket to be hired in the first place. This right would eventually be extinguished when a good fraction of all people live in space. <br />
<br />
===Rights not Covered=== <br />
<br />
All rights not specifically given to other specific entities are reserved to the people of the Moon. <br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
==UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights==<br />
<br />
Alternatively the lunar Bill of Rights could be based on the [http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights]. The 30 articles in this document are much more general and basic.<br />
<br />
---- <br />
<br />
Please add your thoughts to the discussion tab of this article. <br />
<br />
Return to [[Purposes List]]. <br />
<br />
---- <br />
<br />
[[Category:Law]] <br />
[[Category:Purposes]] <br />
[[Category:History]]<br />
[[Category:Business]]</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Weapons&diff=17591Weapons2012-04-25T08:41:28Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Lunar Culture */ fixing typo</p>
<hr />
<div>Often a controversial subject, '''weapons''' -- manufactured or improvised; officially permitted or otherwise -- are a fact of life that will need to be addressed.<br />
<br />
==Lunar Culture==<br />
The lunar settlements will have a different set of values and a different culture. Even though that on Earth the view on weaponry is diverse and controversial, the lunar civilization might choose to ban the right to bear arms.<br />
<br />
Based on the fact of the evolution of the economics system the lunar colony will have a different set of economics that might resemble the capitalism on Earth. However, since the resources at the beginning of the lunar settlement will be scarce, the private property might disappear and then, the use for weapons to defend the mentioned property. Also, the definition of crime and illegal would be subject to the future lunar culture. And with that, the necessity to enforce law through the use of force.<br />
<br />
As the population increases and gets less heavily controlled and pre-selected, the more the problematic aspects of nature might become unavoidable. When this happens, '''weapons might become necessary''' to give people power to prevent a tyrannic government, defend private property, enforce law, etc.<br />
<br />
==Small Arms==<br />
Initially the question of what small arms to provide for is unlikely to matter as situations outside of Earth's atmosphere where weaponry is going to be needed are at least initially going to be highly improbable. <br />
<br />
The real problem arises in the question of what weapons are suitable. It would be less than optimal to carry large calibre [[Slugthrower|slugthrowers]] for use in a pressurized hull with hard vacuum on the other side and potentially dozens or more people at risk of decompression from even an accidental discharge. Furthermore, bullets bounce all over the place. even shots fired from air pistols exhibit unpredictability indoors. <br />
<br />
Edged weapons may be okay for most environments, but those often support the physically strong. Grandma can't protect herself with a sword as well as she can with a terrestrial .357 magnum. <br />
<br />
<!-- too messy and incomplete; please tinker on before uncommenting <br />
===Types of Weapons=== <br />
====Slugthrower==== <br />
Fires a projectile slug at the target <br />
--> <br />
<br />
===Specifications for Ideal Solutions=== <br />
All guns and explosives are extremely dangerous in a space settlement, then, all lunar weapons might have these specifications: <br />
*Safe for use inside pressurized compartments <br />
*Minimal or at least reduced ricochet risks<br />
<br />
===Possible Solutions=== <br />
<br />
* [[Tazers]] <br />
* [[Pepper Spray]] <br />
* [[Mace]] <br />
<br />
===Legal Issues=== <br />
<br />
Tazers, Mace and Pepper Spray are legal to possess in the USA, but illegal in Canada and most of Europe. However, the legality of those might be a totally different issue on the moon.<br />
<br />
See also [[Lunar_Bill_of_Rights#Right_to_bear_and_keep_arms|Right to Bear Arms]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Security]]<br />
[[Category:Law]]</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Lunar_Bill_of_Rights&diff=17590Lunar Bill of Rights2012-04-25T08:41:08Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Right to bear and keep arms */ fixing typo</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Debate}} <br />
<br />
{|align=right<br />
|__TOC__<br />
|}<br />
<br />
<font size=5> A Bill of Rights for Lunar Settlers </font><br />
----<br />
<br />
All the people who live on the Moon will need a clear statement of their rights as lunar citizens. This is particularly important in view of the many bad visions of space settlement that have so far been presented to the public, for example in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and "Outland". <br />
<br />
<br />
==A Charter== <br />
<br />
A bill of rights must be a key part of any settlement's charter. The present expectation is that the charter for the Moon will be based on the current international treaties for Antarctica. <br />
<br />
It follows that, like Antarctica, all settlements must be under the auspices of a sovereign country that is a signature to the treaty. The United States will be able to establish a settlement but a private company could not do so directly. Companies could operate under the United States charter. <br />
<br />
It is therefore reasonable to start with the American Bill of Rights to develop a Lunar Bill of Rights. <br />
<br />
<br />
===Flag of Convenience=== <br />
<br />
It is quite possible that once the research work is well advanced and lunar mining becomes a viable commercial venture, we may see lunar settlements under flags of convenience. Small countries, with no space capability of their own, may serve as cover for international corporations. We could see a lunar settlement under the Panamanian Flag. This is a common practice for ships. The country would receive fees and taxes. The corporation would receive legitimacy, low taxes, and firm control of the operation. Also in the event of a catastrophe, the company liability will be limited strictly to its lunar resources. <br />
<br />
This is another reason we need to establish the Lunar Bill of Rights early.<br />
<br />
==Articles== <br />
<br />
Following the American Bill of Rights, here are a few suggestions for a Lunar Bill of Rights: <br />
<br />
<br />
===Freedom of Religion, Speech, and the Right to petition=== <br />
<br />
====Religion==== <br />
<br />
Having a right to religion, or to no religion, will help insure diversity in the lunar population. The mining operations needs to be a 24 hour / 365 day operation. Different people observing different Sabbaths and holidays will complicate work scheduling. In some ways it may help if people cover each others off time needs in a team effort. <br />
<br />
====Speech==== <br />
<br />
Freedom of speech is likely to be mostly about free, bidirectional communication with Earth. If the government or the company can control that then they can spin problems any way they want. One possibility is to have Ham radio links back to Earth that are the strict property of the citizens. <br />
<br />
====Assembly==== <br />
<br />
Meeting rooms are likely to be very few and far between on the Moon and the security system will be automatically monitoring all such places. Privacy for a meeting may be a serious problem. <br />
<br />
The right to assemble peaceably will certainly include the right to organize a union, although the right to strike may be severely restricted, as it now is with government employees.<br />
<br />
===Right to bear and keep arms=== <br />
<sub>See [[Weapons]]</sub> <br />
<br />
The lunar culture might be very different from anything that we had on Earth. Therefore, weapons might be banned on the moon. AS the population increases and gets less heavily controlled and pre-selected, the more the problematic aspects of nature might become unavoidable. When this happens, '''weapons might become necessary''' to give people power to prevent a tyrannic government, defend private property, enforce law, etc.<br />
<br />
Several romantic views of the Lunar settlement forecast a Chief Security Officer like a Sheriff (See [[People on the Moon]]) and military trained selenites. This security officer would retain all guns and explosive in a locked facility. A number of other workers would voluntarily under go training and serve as first responders in emergencies supporting the Sheriff. The Posse members, and they alone, would be licensed to carry guns and then only under the direct control of the Sheriff.<br />
<br />
===Unreasonable searches and seizures=== <br />
<br />
If the government or company owns all the buildings, and the computer equipment, and all the means of productions, what do you own? <br />
<br />
It is clear that people have a reasonable expectation of privacy in their own room no mater who owns the building. They certainly would have an expectation of privacy for electronic files on a device that you carry on your person (like your Personal in What [[People Carry]]). The problem will come in areas were you share information with others on company computers and need public facilities for private purposes. These rules need to be very clearly worked out. <br />
<br />
The owning of property can also be a problem given the extreme high cost of bringing anything from Earth. Will paying the cost of transport from Earth define ownership? Will the settlers be entitled to periodic small personal shipments at company expense? <br />
<br />
A successful lunar colony will produce building materials locally. Buildings built by colonists in their own time with locally produced materials purchased on Luna from one of a number of companies and built on land assigned to the colonists for their own use would be their own property under sponsorship from one of the colonizing nations. Property taxes could apply.<br />
<br />
===Right to a fair trial=== <br />
<br />
Several of the of the articles deal with a right to a fair trial. We will need to establish rules for jurisdiction in legal maters. Almost certainly this will define the settler's relationship to specific Earth courts. The flag the settlement flies may be important here. <br />
<br />
===Right to Transportation to Earth===<br />
<br />
This right would limit the pressure that an employer could put on an employee, and allow for a way to deal with trouble makers. The trip Earthside could be enforced for cause. An employee on Luna would need to be worth a round trip ticket to be hired in the first place. This right would eventually be extinguished when a good fraction of all people live in space. <br />
<br />
===Rights not Covered=== <br />
<br />
All rights not specifically given to other specific entities are reserved to the people of the Moon. <br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
==UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights==<br />
<br />
Alternatively the lunar Bill of Rights could be based on the [http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights]. The 30 articles in this document are much more general and basic.<br />
<br />
---- <br />
<br />
Please add your thoughts to the discussion tab of this article. <br />
<br />
Return to [[Purposes List]]. <br />
<br />
---- <br />
<br />
[[Category:Law]] <br />
[[Category:Purposes]] <br />
[[Category:History]]<br />
[[Category:Business]]</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Lunar_Bill_of_Rights&diff=17589Lunar Bill of Rights2012-04-25T08:39:13Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Right to bear and keep arms */ Neutrality</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Debate}} <br />
<br />
{|align=right<br />
|__TOC__<br />
|}<br />
<br />
<font size=5> A Bill of Rights for Lunar Settlers </font><br />
----<br />
<br />
All the people who live on the Moon will need a clear statement of their rights as lunar citizens. This is particularly important in view of the many bad visions of space settlement that have so far been presented to the public, for example in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and "Outland". <br />
<br />
<br />
==A Charter== <br />
<br />
A bill of rights must be a key part of any settlement's charter. The present expectation is that the charter for the Moon will be based on the current international treaties for Antarctica. <br />
<br />
It follows that, like Antarctica, all settlements must be under the auspices of a sovereign country that is a signature to the treaty. The United States will be able to establish a settlement but a private company could not do so directly. Companies could operate under the United States charter. <br />
<br />
It is therefore reasonable to start with the American Bill of Rights to develop a Lunar Bill of Rights. <br />
<br />
<br />
===Flag of Convenience=== <br />
<br />
It is quite possible that once the research work is well advanced and lunar mining becomes a viable commercial venture, we may see lunar settlements under flags of convenience. Small countries, with no space capability of their own, may serve as cover for international corporations. We could see a lunar settlement under the Panamanian Flag. This is a common practice for ships. The country would receive fees and taxes. The corporation would receive legitimacy, low taxes, and firm control of the operation. Also in the event of a catastrophe, the company liability will be limited strictly to its lunar resources. <br />
<br />
This is another reason we need to establish the Lunar Bill of Rights early.<br />
<br />
==Articles== <br />
<br />
Following the American Bill of Rights, here are a few suggestions for a Lunar Bill of Rights: <br />
<br />
<br />
===Freedom of Religion, Speech, and the Right to petition=== <br />
<br />
====Religion==== <br />
<br />
Having a right to religion, or to no religion, will help insure diversity in the lunar population. The mining operations needs to be a 24 hour / 365 day operation. Different people observing different Sabbaths and holidays will complicate work scheduling. In some ways it may help if people cover each others off time needs in a team effort. <br />
<br />
====Speech==== <br />
<br />
Freedom of speech is likely to be mostly about free, bidirectional communication with Earth. If the government or the company can control that then they can spin problems any way they want. One possibility is to have Ham radio links back to Earth that are the strict property of the citizens. <br />
<br />
====Assembly==== <br />
<br />
Meeting rooms are likely to be very few and far between on the Moon and the security system will be automatically monitoring all such places. Privacy for a meeting may be a serious problem. <br />
<br />
The right to assemble peaceably will certainly include the right to organize a union, although the right to strike may be severely restricted, as it now is with government employees.<br />
<br />
===Right to bear and keep arms=== <br />
<br />
See [[Weapons]]<br />
<br />
The lunar culture might be very different from anything that we had on Earth. Therefore, weapons might be banned on the moon. AS the population increases and gets less heavily controlled and pre-selected, the more the problematic aspects of nature might become unavoidable. When this happens, '''weapons might become necessary.''' either give people power to prevent a tyrannic government, defend private property, enforce law, etc.<br />
<br />
Several romantic views of the Lunar settlement forecast a Chief Security Officer like a Sheriff (See [[People on the Moon]]) and military trained selenites. This security officer would retain all guns and explosive in a locked facility. A number of other workers would voluntarily under go training and serve as first responders in emergencies supporting the Sheriff. The Posse members, and they alone, would be licensed to carry guns and then only under the direct control of the Sheriff.<br />
<br />
===Unreasonable searches and seizures=== <br />
<br />
If the government or company owns all the buildings, and the computer equipment, and all the means of productions, what do you own? <br />
<br />
It is clear that people have a reasonable expectation of privacy in their own room no mater who owns the building. They certainly would have an expectation of privacy for electronic files on a device that you carry on your person (like your Personal in What [[People Carry]]). The problem will come in areas were you share information with others on company computers and need public facilities for private purposes. These rules need to be very clearly worked out. <br />
<br />
The owning of property can also be a problem given the extreme high cost of bringing anything from Earth. Will paying the cost of transport from Earth define ownership? Will the settlers be entitled to periodic small personal shipments at company expense? <br />
<br />
A successful lunar colony will produce building materials locally. Buildings built by colonists in their own time with locally produced materials purchased on Luna from one of a number of companies and built on land assigned to the colonists for their own use would be their own property under sponsorship from one of the colonizing nations. Property taxes could apply.<br />
<br />
===Right to a fair trial=== <br />
<br />
Several of the of the articles deal with a right to a fair trial. We will need to establish rules for jurisdiction in legal maters. Almost certainly this will define the settler's relationship to specific Earth courts. The flag the settlement flies may be important here. <br />
<br />
===Right to Transportation to Earth===<br />
<br />
This right would limit the pressure that an employer could put on an employee, and allow for a way to deal with trouble makers. The trip Earthside could be enforced for cause. An employee on Luna would need to be worth a round trip ticket to be hired in the first place. This right would eventually be extinguished when a good fraction of all people live in space. <br />
<br />
===Rights not Covered=== <br />
<br />
All rights not specifically given to other specific entities are reserved to the people of the Moon. <br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
==UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights==<br />
<br />
Alternatively the lunar Bill of Rights could be based on the [http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights]. The 30 articles in this document are much more general and basic.<br />
<br />
---- <br />
<br />
Please add your thoughts to the discussion tab of this article. <br />
<br />
Return to [[Purposes List]]. <br />
<br />
---- <br />
<br />
[[Category:Law]] <br />
[[Category:Purposes]] <br />
[[Category:History]]<br />
[[Category:Business]]</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Weapons&diff=17588Weapons2012-04-25T08:33:37Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Specifications for Ideal Solutions */</p>
<hr />
<div>Often a controversial subject, '''weapons''' -- manufactured or improvised; officially permitted or otherwise -- are a fact of life that will need to be addressed.<br />
<br />
==Lunar Culture==<br />
The lunar settlements will have a different set of values and a different culture. Even though that on Earth the view on weaponry is diverse and controversial, the lunar civilization might choose to ban the right to bear arms.<br />
<br />
Based on the fact of the evolution of the economics system the lunar colony will have a different set of economics that might resemble the capitalism on Earth. However, since the resources at the beginning of the lunar settlement will be scarce, the private property might disappear and then, the use for weapons to defend the mentioned property. Also, the definition of crime and illegal would be subject to the future lunar culture. And with that, the necessity to enforce law through the use of force.<br />
<br />
As the population increases and gets less heavily controlled and pre-selected, the more the problematic aspects of nature might become unavoidable. When this happens, '''weapons might become necessary.''' either give people power to prevent a tyrannic government, defend private property, enforce law, etc.<br />
<br />
==Small Arms==<br />
Initially the question of what small arms to provide for is unlikely to matter as situations outside of Earth's atmosphere where weaponry is going to be needed are at least initially going to be highly improbable. <br />
<br />
The real problem arises in the question of what weapons are suitable. It would be less than optimal to carry large calibre [[Slugthrower|slugthrowers]] for use in a pressurized hull with hard vacuum on the other side and potentially dozens or more people at risk of decompression from even an accidental discharge. Furthermore, bullets bounce all over the place. even shots fired from air pistols exhibit unpredictability indoors. <br />
<br />
Edged weapons may be okay for most environments, but those often support the physically strong. Grandma can't protect herself with a sword as well as she can with a terrestrial .357 magnum. <br />
<br />
<!-- too messy and incomplete; please tinker on before uncommenting <br />
===Types of Weapons=== <br />
====Slugthrower==== <br />
Fires a projectile slug at the target <br />
--> <br />
<br />
===Specifications for Ideal Solutions=== <br />
All guns and explosives are extremely dangerous in a space settlement, then, all lunar weapons might have these specifications: <br />
*Safe for use inside pressurized compartments <br />
*Minimal or at least reduced ricochet risks<br />
<br />
===Possible Solutions=== <br />
<br />
* [[Tazers]] <br />
* [[Pepper Spray]] <br />
* [[Mace]] <br />
<br />
===Legal Issues=== <br />
<br />
Tazers, Mace and Pepper Spray are legal to possess in the USA, but illegal in Canada and most of Europe. However, the legality of those might be a totally different issue on the moon.<br />
<br />
See also [[Lunar_Bill_of_Rights#Right_to_bear_and_keep_arms|Right to Bear Arms]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Security]]<br />
[[Category:Law]]</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Weapons&diff=17587Weapons2012-04-25T08:32:05Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Lunar Culture */ expanding section</p>
<hr />
<div>Often a controversial subject, '''weapons''' -- manufactured or improvised; officially permitted or otherwise -- are a fact of life that will need to be addressed.<br />
<br />
==Lunar Culture==<br />
The lunar settlements will have a different set of values and a different culture. Even though that on Earth the view on weaponry is diverse and controversial, the lunar civilization might choose to ban the right to bear arms.<br />
<br />
Based on the fact of the evolution of the economics system the lunar colony will have a different set of economics that might resemble the capitalism on Earth. However, since the resources at the beginning of the lunar settlement will be scarce, the private property might disappear and then, the use for weapons to defend the mentioned property. Also, the definition of crime and illegal would be subject to the future lunar culture. And with that, the necessity to enforce law through the use of force.<br />
<br />
As the population increases and gets less heavily controlled and pre-selected, the more the problematic aspects of nature might become unavoidable. When this happens, '''weapons might become necessary.''' either give people power to prevent a tyrannic government, defend private property, enforce law, etc.<br />
<br />
==Small Arms==<br />
Initially the question of what small arms to provide for is unlikely to matter as situations outside of Earth's atmosphere where weaponry is going to be needed are at least initially going to be highly improbable. <br />
<br />
The real problem arises in the question of what weapons are suitable. It would be less than optimal to carry large calibre [[Slugthrower|slugthrowers]] for use in a pressurized hull with hard vacuum on the other side and potentially dozens or more people at risk of decompression from even an accidental discharge. Furthermore, bullets bounce all over the place. even shots fired from air pistols exhibit unpredictability indoors. <br />
<br />
Edged weapons may be okay for most environments, but those often support the physically strong. Grandma can't protect herself with a sword as well as she can with a terrestrial .357 magnum. <br />
<br />
<!-- too messy and incomplete; please tinker on before uncommenting <br />
===Types of Weapons=== <br />
====Slugthrower==== <br />
Fires a projectile slug at the target <br />
--> <br />
<br />
===Specifications for Ideal Solutions=== <br />
Lunar weapons might have these specifications: <br />
*Safe for use inside pressurized compartments <br />
*Minimal or at least reduced ricochet risks <br />
<br />
===Possible Solutions=== <br />
<br />
* [[Tazers]] <br />
* [[Pepper Spray]] <br />
* [[Mace]] <br />
<br />
===Legal Issues=== <br />
<br />
Tazers, Mace and Pepper Spray are legal to possess in the USA, but illegal in Canada and most of Europe. However, the legality of those might be a totally different issue on the moon.<br />
<br />
See also [[Lunar_Bill_of_Rights#Right_to_bear_and_keep_arms|Right to Bear Arms]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Security]]<br />
[[Category:Law]]</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Weapons&diff=17586Weapons2012-04-25T08:23:41Z<p>Jotagiraldez: fixing link typo</p>
<hr />
<div>Often a controversial subject, '''weapons''' -- manufactured or improvised; officially permitted or otherwise -- are a fact of life that will need to be addressed.<br />
<br />
==Lunar Culture==<br />
The lunar settlements will have a different set of values and a different culture. Even though that on Earth the view on weaponry is diverse and controversial, the lunar civilization might choose to ban the right to bear arms.<br />
<br />
Based on the fact of the evolution of the economics system the lunar colony will have a different set of economics that might resemble the capitalism on Earth. However, since the resources at the beginning of the lunar settlement will be scarce, the private property might disappear and then, the use for weapons to defend the mentioned property. Also, the definition of crime and illegal would be subject to the future lunar culture. And with that, the necessity to enforce law through the use of force.<br />
<br />
As the population increases and gets less heavily controlled and pre-selected, the more the problematic aspects of nature might become unavoidable. When this happens, '''weapons might become necessary.'''<br />
<br />
==Small Arms==<br />
Initially the question of what small arms to provide for is unlikely to matter as situations outside of Earth's atmosphere where weaponry is going to be needed are at least initially going to be highly improbable. <br />
<br />
The real problem arises in the question of what weapons are suitable. It would be less than optimal to carry large calibre [[Slugthrower|slugthrowers]] for use in a pressurized hull with hard vacuum on the other side and potentially dozens or more people at risk of decompression from even an accidental discharge. Furthermore, bullets bounce all over the place. even shots fired from air pistols exhibit unpredictability indoors. <br />
<br />
Edged weapons may be okay for most environments, but those often support the physically strong. Grandma can't protect herself with a sword as well as she can with a terrestrial .357 magnum. <br />
<br />
<!-- too messy and incomplete; please tinker on before uncommenting <br />
===Types of Weapons=== <br />
====Slugthrower==== <br />
Fires a projectile slug at the target <br />
--> <br />
<br />
===Specifications for Ideal Solutions=== <br />
Lunar weapons might have these specifications: <br />
*Safe for use inside pressurized compartments <br />
*Minimal or at least reduced ricochet risks <br />
<br />
===Possible Solutions=== <br />
<br />
* [[Tazers]] <br />
* [[Pepper Spray]] <br />
* [[Mace]] <br />
<br />
===Legal Issues=== <br />
<br />
Tazers, Mace and Pepper Spray are legal to possess in the USA, but illegal in Canada and most of Europe. However, the legality of those might be a totally different issue on the moon.<br />
<br />
See also [[Lunar_Bill_of_Rights#Right_to_bear_and_keep_arms|Right to Bear Arms]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Security]]<br />
[[Category:Law]]</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Weapons&diff=17585Weapons2012-04-25T08:20:58Z<p>Jotagiraldez: Improving neutrality and adding Lunar culture section</p>
<hr />
<div>Often a controversial subject, '''weapons''' -- manufactured or improvised; officially permitted or otherwise -- are a fact of life that will need to be addressed.<br />
<br />
==Lunar Culture==<br />
The lunar settlements will have a different set of values and a different culture. Even though that on Earth the view on weaponry is diverse and controversial, the lunar civilization might choose to ban the right to bear arms.<br />
<br />
Based on the fact of the evolution of the economics system the lunar colony will have a different set of economics that might resemble the capitalism on Earth. However, since the resources at the beginning of the lunar settlement will be scarce, the private property might disappear and then, the use for weapons to defend the mentioned property. Also, the definition of crime and illegal would be subject to the future lunar culture. And with that, the necessity to enforce law through the use of force.<br />
<br />
As the population increases and gets less heavily controlled and pre-selected, the more the problematic aspects of nature might become unavoidable. When this happens, '''weapons might become necessary.'''<br />
<br />
==Small Arms==<br />
Initially the question of what small arms to provide for is unlikely to matter as situations outside of Earth's atmosphere where weaponry is going to be needed are at least initially going to be highly improbable. <br />
<br />
The real problem arises in the question of what weapons are suitable. It would be less than optimal to carry large calibre [[Slugthrower|slugthrowers]] for use in a pressurized hull with hard vacuum on the other side and potentially dozens or more people at risk of decompression from even an accidental discharge. Furthermore, bullets bounce all over the place. even shots fired from air pistols exhibit unpredictability indoors. <br />
<br />
Edged weapons may be okay for most environments, but those often support the physically strong. Grandma can't protect herself with a sword as well as she can with a terrestrial .357 magnum. <br />
<br />
<!-- too messy and incomplete; please tinker on before uncommenting <br />
===Types of Weapons=== <br />
====Slugthrower==== <br />
Fires a projectile slug at the target <br />
--> <br />
<br />
===Specifications for Ideal Solutions=== <br />
Lunar weapons might have these specifications: <br />
*Safe for use inside pressurized compartments <br />
*Minimal or at least reduced ricochet risks <br />
<br />
===Possible Solutions=== <br />
<br />
* [[Tazers]] <br />
* [[Pepper Spray]] <br />
* [[Mace]] <br />
<br />
===Legal Issues=== <br />
<br />
Tazers, Mace and Pepper Spray are legal to possess in the USA, but illegal in Canada and most of Europe. However, the legality of those might be a totally different issue on the moon.<br />
<br />
See also [[Lunar_Bill_of_Rights#Right_to_bear_and_keep_arms]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Security]]<br />
[[Category:Law]]</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Weapons&diff=17584Talk:Weapons2012-04-25T07:58:14Z<p>Jotagiraldez: </p>
<hr />
<div>==Legal Issues== <br />
We need to clarify the scope of relevance of terrestrial jurisdictions and their requirements and prohibitions. I suppose there could be issues with colonies that fall under the jurisdiction of terrestrial governments, but a lot of colonies will be seeking to avoid such entanglements for a great many reasons. Admittedly, spacecraft traffic may have fewer escapes from such jurisdictions. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 03:07, 6 January 2008 (UTC) <br />
<br />
National laws and various treaties apply until the colonists can exert their independence. Every spacecraft (and base) is currently required to fly a flag of of some recognized nation. Then ISS has a special intergovernmental agreement between the partners which defines their shared jurisdiction. So the answer is: "it all depends".[[User:Cfrjlr|Charles F. Radley]] 15:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Another point of view==<br />
<br />
Surviving on the moon means a change in the human behavior. Social Darwinism says that behaviors that do not help preserve/increase the gene pool would be ostracized (examples from the history of human civilization: Homosexuality, Incest...)<br />
<br />
Guns, violence are something that have to be ostracized. Not a utopia, but also economics and private property will change in the moon... If we look back at the development of capitalism and we compare the capitalism of today with the capitalism of 100 years ago there are differences... Do we want to export to the moon the same system?<br />
<br />
Therefore, guns and violence, self defense, private property will be different on the Moon... The point is to think what we want to do with it. We could channel the Lunar constitution to avoid such things as guns...<br />
<br />
I am not American, but I know that we can live without them... Prior to my first week in America I hadn't seen a gun in my life... I was really scared when I saw one for the first time... I was 21 and the gun was in a policeman's holster...<br />
<br />
I do not understand why other countries can live without guns and Americans can't... It is simply a matter of decide what kind of civilization we want to export... We could export the guns civilization or we can just prevent that from happening...<br />
<br />
History will tell the guns story on the moon...--[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 07:58, 25 April 2012 (UTC)</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:The_bad_financial_reputation_of_a_lunar_colony&diff=17583Talk:The bad financial reputation of a lunar colony2012-04-25T06:48:32Z<p>Jotagiraldez: </p>
<hr />
<div>I completely disagree with my (very cursory) workup as a deleterious line of reasoning. However in the interest of cooperative collaboration I would like to discuss where financial planning belongs on this site before editing this article.<br />
<br />
That specific financial considerations should be part of any treatment of lunar colonization ought to be self-evident. Discussion of various technical considerations is interesting and valuable but, to quote the film ''The Right Stuff'':<br />
<br />
"Do you know what makes your ships go up? ... Funding."<br />
<br />
Initial investment, public and private subsidy, prospects for profitability, short- and long-term ROI and the like cannot be brushed aside as unworthy topics, or as naysaying, or as something that will be worked out "elsewhere" or "some other time." That is pure handwaving.<br />
<br />
Financing happens first, before any of the rest of these technical challenges can be surmounted. And in order to talk about finance you have to talk about budgets.<br />
<br />
Where should that discussion take place?<br />
<br />
:There is nothing wrong with having <nowiki>[[Category:Initial Investment]] as a subcategory of [[Category:Finance]]</nowiki>. I deleted the category because the content was not a description of the category but rather a stub article that needed to be in a category. You can see that I was very free with putting my own viewpoint into an article that included your work, you may do the same. We should, in explaining our differences to each other, produce something that fairly represents differing views and informs readers. We are far from insisting on a neutral point of view at Lunarpedia. We are the pro lunar colony/settlement fanatics. We must be aware that others that we want to convince of the wisdom of a lunar colony often consider 0.2% of the world gross annual product to be an exorbitant amount of money. Before spending it on a lunar settlement, they would want to have expert assurance that technically it would work and financially it would annually return a substantial percentage of the investment while presenting reasonably low risk. With the Apollo program people were satisfied with the prestige gained for the price, but did not foresee continuing similar increments of prestige gained for continuing expenditures. To justify further expenditures we should have a convincing argument that there will be a financial return. Since we are in the stage of generating general plans and gathering resource information with no certain profit in the offing, 10 billion dollars a year seems as much as it is reasonable to ask. If this much were dedicated to developing the technology to remotely mine Luna and ship the product to LEO, I think the future would be guaranteed. We would reach a point where we could point to stacks of technical reports showing that space based solar power could return dependable and increasing profits. Then there would be an increase in funding. <br />
<br />
:If you want to restore <nowiki>[[Category:Initial Investment]], just add it to the bottom of an article that belongs in that category as if it existed. The article will show up with a category link that you can click on to edit. Put [[Category:Finance]]</nowiki> in the edit window and it is hooked up to the tree. There is much unfinished work on this web site that we can get to when we are willing to devote the effort. I would like to try to answer any questions that you have. <br />
<br />
:Happy editing, <br />
:[[User:Farred|Farred]] 17:09, 20 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I should answer the question you asked. We can discuss finance of a moon settlement anywhere. Here is fine or we could start a discussion at the [[Category talk:Finance]] page. To start an article with the title that you want, just type in that title into the search field and click the go button. You should be given the option of Creating an article by that title. If you click on that option you go to the edit window and you just enter your text. <br />
::Use four tild keystrokes to automatically put your name and the time at the end of your additions to talk pages, like this: <nowiki>"~~~~"</nowiki> - [[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:16, 20 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I hope I did not scare you away by referring to fanatics. A neutral point of view or even an anti moon colony point of view is permitted. All points of view can provide valuable information, but one must expect that on this web site anti moon colony ideas will be followed up by opposing argument. <br />
:As for the $10 billion dollar a year budget, there is so much less than that budgeted to analyzing moon colony plans and finding the resources available on the moon that it would take considerable time to ramp up to that rate of spending as a part of NASA's budget. The moon colony activities can make progress on much less. <br />
:[[User:Farred|Farred]] 22:20, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Agree!!--[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 06:48, 25 April 2012 (UTC)</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Orbital_Ring&diff=17542Talk:Orbital Ring2012-04-17T02:54:41Z<p>Jotagiraldez: </p>
<hr />
<div>It seems unlikely that an orbital ring will be the first profit making venture of a lunar colony. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 18:51, 31 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
== Here is a likely addition == <br />
<nowiki>== 20,000 Cables into the Sky ==</nowiki> <br />
<br />
A carbon fiber epoxy composite cable suspending its own weight in one Earth gravity will break under the load if it is eighty kilometers or more in length. Since the orbital ring is specified as being at ninety miles, one-hundred-forty-four kilometers a method of avoiding this problem is needed. That method is tapering the cable. A cable under a twenty metric ton stress at half of its breaking stress at the Earth's surface would need to be three-hundred-sixteen millionths of a square centimeter in cross section, seven-hundred-nine hundred-thousandths of a centimeter in diameter. At an altitude of four-hundred meters it would need an additional three millionths of a square centimeter cross section. By the time the cable attaches to the orbital ring at an altitude of ninety miles, it would need to be one-hundred-fourteen ten-thousandths of a centimeter in cross section. --[[User:Farred|Farred]] 14:02, 2 August 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Space Elevator ==<br />
<br />
Of course, we want to find new materials for cable. It seems that carbon nanotubes would do the trick... <br />
<br />
Perhaps I can adapt the wikipedia article on the space Elevator.--[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 02:54, 17 April 2012 (UTC)</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Modular_Brain_Theory&diff=17536Talk:Modular Brain Theory2012-04-16T04:24:43Z<p>Jotagiraldez: </p>
<hr />
<div>Being technical people, we can build upon our new undestanding of how the human brain works to achieve our goals.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Jriley|Jriley]] 12:01, 26 May 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The article could improve its purpose by explaining moon/selenite psychology as part of Moon medicine.<br />
--[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 04:24, 16 April 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
----</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Lunar_Settlement_Artificial_Atmosphere&diff=17314Lunar Settlement Artificial Atmosphere2012-01-25T21:47:45Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Agriculture */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Introduction ==<br />
A lunar colony that is economically viable, with agricultural production to feed the colonists, air recycling, industrial production to support housing construction, transportation and exports, will need both industrial process atmospheres and a human life support atmosphere. Since there will need to be artificial environments for agriculture and air recycling, these processes will be less differentiated from other industries than they are on Earth. Air recycling on Earth is nearly free. Only within the last century have industrial concerns about preserving a healthy atmosphere on Earth been widely recognized as important. On Luna the atmospheres for the various industrial processes will be a bigger concern than the atmosphere that supports the life of the colonists, even if life support is more urgently important. Vast amounts of industry per person will support the colonists. Some processes run best in reducing atmospheres. Others require oxidizing atmospheres, inert atmospheres, or vacuum. <br />
<br />
A lunar habitat will require a pressurized mixture of gasses to sustain the life of the inhabitants. There is some experimental data with some artificial atmospheres, mostly from space stations like [[ISS into the Pacific|ISS]] or the [[MIR]]. These stations have been manned by human crew for extended periods of time. However, projected lunar habitats will manned for longer time frames, and more experimentation will be required on the effects of long term exposure. On the Moon, the atmosphere will be made in accordance with the architecture followed. Some variables include the use of [[Air Lock]]s, the thickness and materials of the walls, and other variables.<br />
<br />
== Pressure/Gas Combination ==<br />
<br />
Exact choice of a habitats internal pressure and gas combination will have various effects on the inhabitants and the structure itself. Pressure is expected to be used to support the lunar structure under normal operation, though the level required for this is low enough that virtually any livable level will be more than enough (see [[Roof Support]]). As such, the higher the habitat pressure, the stronger a habitat must be constructed to withstand it. In addition, a high pressure interior will loose atmosphere faster than a low pressure one if a leak is developed. The choice of gas combination will greatly effect the achievable pressures.<br />
<br />
Since [[Oxygen]] is expected to be a major by-product of [[manufacturing activities]] on the moon, a pure oxygen atmosphere is attractive as it is likely to be the easiest (and hence, cheapest) gas to procure on the moon. To avoid fires, the partial pressure of oxygen in the habitat must be kept to earth like levels (no more than 21 kPa / 3 psi). This low pressure is advantageous, and the lack of any filler gasses would greatly simplify atmospheric processing equipment. For these reasons, a pure oxygen atmosphere was utilized in the Gemini project, early designs of the Apollo spacecraft, and is currently used in spacesuits. However, some studies suggest that a pure oxygen atmosphere becomes poisonous to the inhabitants on long term exposure, making it unsuitable for a lunar habitat.<ref>Malina, Frank J., ed. Life Science Research and Lunar Medicine. London: A. Wheathon and Co. Ltd. 1967 pg. 3-4 </ref> However, as mentioned previously, a pure oxygen environment is useful for space suits, as pressure must be kept low in order for the suit to stay pliable. Using a pure oxygen environment for space suits and a high pressure mixed environment for the habitat would require a period of breathing pure oxygen before donning the suit in order to remove all nitrogen from the blood and avoid decompression sickness (also known the bends). This is currently practiced on the ISS.<br />
<br />
A combination of one or more [[inert gases]] with [[Oxygen]] would allow proper oxygenation over longer time-frames. Examples include [[nitrogen]], [[helium]], and [[argon]], all of which are present in the lunar regolith and can be extracted by heating (see [[volatiles]]). [[Nitrogen]] is attractive as it would allow for an earthlike mix, though the low availability of nitrogen in lunar soil (compared to other [[volatiles]]) could raise difficulties in this regard. [[Argon]], even less abundant than [[nitrogen]], would also have this problem. [[Helium]] could also be added to the oxygen mix, as it is more abundant in lunar soil, and its low density means significantly less mass is required for a given volume. However, the addition of any appreciable quantities of helium to the atmosphere would result in a higher vocal pitch for those persons breathing it, similar to (though less intense than) the effects of inhaling pure helium. This effect is currently seen on earth in very deep diving operations, where helium-oxygen mixes are utilized, sometimes facilitating the need for a digital voice alteration device.<br />
<br />
Another factor to consider with any combination is the direct effects of pressure. The most notable effect is in the boiling point of water, which would decrease with decreasing pressure.<br />
<br />
{| border=1<br />
! colspan="2" | Total Pressure !! colspan = "2" | Boiling Point Of Water !! Comments<br />
|-<br />
| kPa || psi || °C || °F || <br />
|-<br />
| 101.3 || 14.2 || 100 || 212 || Sea Level, ISS<br />
|-<br />
| 84 || 12.17 || 95 || 203 || Denver, a high altitude city<br />
|-<br />
| 81.4 || 11.74 || 94 || 201 || Mexico City, a high altitude city<br />
|-<br />
| 74.0 || 10.2 || 92 || 197 || Open airplane, ISS ports<br />
|-<br />
| 59.1 || 8.3 || 86 || 187 || ISS spacesuit<br />
|-<br />
| 33.5 || 4.7 || 72 || 162 || Apollo spacesuit<br />
|-<br />
| 30.6 || 4.3 || 70 || 158 || Shuttle spacesuit<br />
|-<br />
| 26.0 || 3.65 || 66 || 152 || Top of Mount Everest<br />
|}<br />
<br />
The main problem this would pose would be cooking of food, as lower boiling points would make many foods impractical to cook. However, these foods could still be prepared using a pressure cooker. Many hikers utilize lightweight pressure cookers for this purpose when climbing to high altitudes, and adapting such devices to lunar use should not be difficult.<br />
<br />
== Agriculture ==<br />
<br />
Plants <ref>Henninger, D. L., ed. Lunar Base Agriculture. Texas: NASA & Soil Science Society of America. ISBN 0- 89118-100-8 Introduction</ref>, like humans, are capable of tolerating lower atmospheric pressure so long as all required gasses are available. Some studies indicate that plants can survive at pressures lower than any human can. Whatever the pressure, an environment optimized for plant growth would benefit from having an atmosphere enriched with carbon dioxide, as they would grow faster. This enrichment is used in some terrestrial greenhouses for both growth boosting and pest control, as plants will tolerate CO<sub>2</sub> levels that will kill insects.<br />
<br />
== See Also ==<br />
*[[Atmosphere]]<br />
*[[Lunar Atmosphere]]<br />
*[[Lunar Life Support Parameters]]<br />
*[[Lunar Settlement]]<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
[[Category:Atmosphere Maintenance]]</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Nitrogen&diff=17313Nitrogen2012-01-25T21:44:54Z<p>Jotagiraldez: References + Amount of nitrogen on the moon</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Element |<br />
name=Nitrogen |<br />
symbol=N |<br />
available=trace |<br />
need=essential |<br />
number=7 |<br />
mass=14.00674 |<br />
group=15 |<br />
period=2 |<br />
phase=Gas |<br />
series=Non-metals |<br />
density=1.251 g/L |<br />
melts=63.15K,<BR/>-210.00°C,<BR/>-346.00°F |<br />
boils=77.36K,<BR/>-195.79°C,<BR/>-320.42°F |<br />
isotopes=14<BR/>15 |<br />
prior=[[Carbon|<FONT color="#7F7FFF">C</FONT>]] |<br />
next=[[Oxygen|<FONT color="#7F7FFF">O</FONT>]] |<br />
above=<SMALL><FONT color="#7F7F7F">N/A</FONT></SMALL> |<br />
aprior=<SMALL><FONT color="#7F7F7F">N/A</FONT></SMALL> |<br />
anext=<SMALL><FONT color="#7F7F7F">N/A</FONT></SMALL> |<br />
below=[[Phosphorus|<FONT color="#7F7FFF">P</FONT>]] |<br />
bprior=[[Silicon|<FONT color="#7F7FFF">Si</FONT>]] |<br />
bnext=[[Sulfur|<FONT color="#7F7FFF">S</FONT>]] |<br />
radius=65 |<br />
bohr=56 |<br />
covalent=75 |<br />
vdwr=155 |<br />
irad=(+3) 16 |<br />
ipot=14.53 |<br />
econfig=1s<sup>2</sup> <br/>2s<sup>2</sup> 2p<sup>3</sup> |<br />
eshell=2, 5 |<br />
enega=3.04 |<br />
eaffin=Unstable anion |<br />
oxstat=+/-'''3''', 5, 4, 2 |<br />
magn= |<br />
cryst=Hexagonal |<br />
}}<br />
'''Nitrogen''' is a Non-metal in group 15.<br />
It has a Hexagonal crystalline structure.<br />
This element has two stable isotopes: 14 and 15. <br />
<BR/><BR/><br />
"Nitrogen (N) is an essential element of life and a part of all plant and animal proteins. Nitrogen can be produced in several ways. Some plants, such as soybeans and other legumes, recover nitrogen directly from the atmosphere or from the soil in a process know as "fixation," whereby the plant converts nitrogen into carbohydrates, essential amino acids, and proteins. Nitrogen is commercially recovered from the air as ammonia, which is produced by combining nitrogen in the atmosphere with hydrogen from natural gas. Ammonia is converted to other nitrogen compounds, the most important of which are urea (NH<sub>2</sub>CONH<sub>2</sub>), nitric acid (HNO<sub>3</sub>), ammonium nitrate (NH<sub>4</sub>NO<sub>3</sub>), and ammonium sulfate [(NH<sub>4</sub>)<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub>]. With the exception of nitric acid, these compounds are widely used as fertilizer." - USGS Nitrogen Statistics and Information <ref>http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/nitrogen/</ref><br />
<BR/><BR/><br />
The amount of nitrogen on the moon is uncertain due to the lack of information on the inner part of the crust. Traces of nitrogen on the luna correspond to the range of 100 ppm. Therefore, nitrogen is extremely rare on the moon.<ref>http://www.moonminer.com/Lunar_regolith.html</ref><br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<references/><br />
{{Autostub}}<br />
[[Category:Gases]]<br />
[[Category:Non-metals ]]<br />
[[Category:Critical and Essential Elements]]<br />
<br />
<!-- Generated by a gamma candidate version of Autostub2 (Test 9) --></div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Symbiotes&diff=17312Talk:Symbiotes2012-01-25T21:08:13Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Topic */</p>
<hr />
<div>We need to rethink our design of lunar settlements in view of new information and new concepts. This is a start of that design effort.<br />
<br />
As with all design efforts we must start at the top. Our relationship to our machines is at the very top of any design involving man in space.<br />
<br />
I look forward to your input.<br />
<br />
<br />
Thanks,<br />
--[[User:Jriley|Jriley]] 17:47, 14 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Copyright questions about images in article== <br />
There are some image files that seem to me to be neither public domain nor the property of Jriley. There is "Steve Jobs & iPhone", "Terminator, Defleshed" and "HAL200101.jpg". There is no clear attestation of public domain or original work for a number of other images. What I propose to do is leave the black swan graph and robonaut images and delete the rest. If there is good reason to believe that Jriley has the right to publish these images, now is the time to make this clear. There has been much sentiment for new restrictive laws that could put Wikis out of action for even suspected copyright violations. I do not want Lunarpedia to be an example of the copyright abuse that backers of such laws can point to and say: "See, that is the flagrant abuse we are trying to stop." [[User:Farred|Farred]] 23:10, 18 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I have followed a suggestion by Mike and Rose for the three most likely to be problematic images (as a step short of deletion in case a fair use or other solution can be worked out in the next few days), but most of the other images, depending on their sources, are likely to be equally as problematic. We really need to know where they came from and what terms they're available under. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 05:43, 20 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I've found one of the generic images. It's public domain on Wikipedia. if Tom doesn't reappear in time to clarify and we can't find them the other generic images should be easy enough to replace with ones we can be confident about. Obviously, the three others are going to be a little bit harder to replace... -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 08:55, 20 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The images undocumented images are all generic or taken from ad materials. They are not critical to the argument of the entry so I simply removed them. --[[User:Jriley|Jriley]] 23:54, 20 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::You also removed the one I found documentation for. Most of the other images could be easily replaced by images that we can find the licencing terms for, preferably public domain. It might be useful to hold onto the problem images just long enough to upload their replacements. What I really want to do, though, is have replacements for the other aspects of the article previously illustrated by images that suits and lawyers could be expected to go after us for having up -- they were also useful points to have visually represented. ...Although if they were promotional images, there might be terms under which they're available that we could adhere to. I believe we need more graphics in most of our articles. Humans are inherently visually oriented, and the usefulness of Lunarpedia is enhanced by making use of this. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 22:15, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Topic==<br />
The symbiotic relationship that we have with plants and machines will play an important role in the future of moon's history. The article needs refinement... the black swans are out of the topic. This articles is organized like a college handout. --[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 22:48, 19 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
:Some people might find it useful to think of the relationship between people and our machines as symbiotic. We can leave it as an article on Lunarpedia but technically machines cannot be symbiotes because they are not alive. Attempting legal incorporation of a machine will not change that. Legal corporations are not alive. Any action a corporation takes must be taken by some human agent of the corporation acting on behalf of the corporation. A corporation is a legal organization of people that is documented by some state of the United States or a foreign state. It is not a living thing and it cannot be a symbiote. A machine can be the property of a corporation, but it cannot be a corporation. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:03, 20 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
::Although a human would program the machine and the machine would act following that program, unintended consequences may happen, such as stock trading programs crashing the market by following instructions to minimize losses, followed by humans capitalizing on the crash by buying cheap. What happens when machines start programming each other? [[User:Miros1|Rose/Miros]] 01:00, 20 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::A recent Wired cover article had a red-colored toy robot on its side. It firmly announced that Artificial Intelligence is here -- and that it's nothing at all like we expected. We seem to be building unconsciousnesses of enormous, if typically specialized capabilities. It's very possible that some combination of these plus some additional, to-be developed ''modules'' -- to borrow a term from Evolutionary Psychology -- will finally provide us with the Singularity level conscious AI we've been awaiting for more than half a century. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 09:01, 20 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Maybe Black Swans needs to be its own article? Given the presence of discussion questions, I assume the whole article was intended as a starter/thought piece. Perhaps symbiosis is the wrong word; do we have other candidates? [[User:Miros1|Rose/Miros]] 01:00, 20 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: This Symboliotes entry was a reorganization of a paper written for another purpose and would work better here as several linked entries. It is in three distinct parts. The first part is on "why" and is somewhat out of place by the normal logic of a technical article. It appears first first because reading the technical discussion first tends reduce the number of readers who ever read past it into the why section. People simply like "why" better than "what".<br />
<br />
:: The black swans make a somewhat out of context appearance because the "why" of the whole article is to force out-of-box thinking. Yes, we really do need a full article on black swans as we are doing our up-most to generate some.<br />
<br />
:: The third section, legal robot people, is an argument ad adsurbum. Making corporations people logically leads to making robots people. If you do not accept the second idea, then you should not accept the first idea. Again this is a rather desperate attempt to get a raise out of somebody at a time when the Moon is a dead subject.<br />
<br />
:: I do stand by the major concept however. To reinvigorate human space exploration for the 21st century, we must redesign everything. The place to start is '''not''' at the bottom with rockets and spacesuits but at the top with a complete re-conception of who human beings are and how we relate to our machines. Odd as it may seem, a spaceship that loves you is a good place to start. --[[User:Jriley|Jriley]] 00:20, 21 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::But a spaceship that hates you will leak air at all the wrong times.... [[User:Miros1|Rose/Miros]] 03:13, 21 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
::::We are getting out of focus here... Ideas: 1) We already have a symbiotic relationship with moneras, fungis, animals and plants... When discussing lunar medicine (even space station medicine) we know the imperative of keeping the proper amounts of microorganisms inside our body. Human-lunar and space settlements are indeed plants/animals/bacteria-lunar-settlements as well... At least in the near future is imperative to "settle" plants on the moon for a correct ISRU. 2)The discussion of re-conceptions of lunar settlements/architectures are another chapter and good soil for dialectic in new-articles. '''3) The article symbiotes has to be organized in a way that explain what symbiosis is and its relationship with the luna even before start to explain the ideas exposed by user Jriley about the human-machine symbiosis.'''<br />
<br />
::::I find the topic interesting for dialectic. However, the article could be organized diferently. Right now it looks like a handout of a sociology... something... --[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 21:07, 25 January 2012 (UTC)</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Symbiotes&diff=17311Talk:Symbiotes2012-01-25T21:07:37Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Topic */</p>
<hr />
<div>We need to rethink our design of lunar settlements in view of new information and new concepts. This is a start of that design effort.<br />
<br />
As with all design efforts we must start at the top. Our relationship to our machines is at the very top of any design involving man in space.<br />
<br />
I look forward to your input.<br />
<br />
<br />
Thanks,<br />
--[[User:Jriley|Jriley]] 17:47, 14 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Copyright questions about images in article== <br />
There are some image files that seem to me to be neither public domain nor the property of Jriley. There is "Steve Jobs & iPhone", "Terminator, Defleshed" and "HAL200101.jpg". There is no clear attestation of public domain or original work for a number of other images. What I propose to do is leave the black swan graph and robonaut images and delete the rest. If there is good reason to believe that Jriley has the right to publish these images, now is the time to make this clear. There has been much sentiment for new restrictive laws that could put Wikis out of action for even suspected copyright violations. I do not want Lunarpedia to be an example of the copyright abuse that backers of such laws can point to and say: "See, that is the flagrant abuse we are trying to stop." [[User:Farred|Farred]] 23:10, 18 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I have followed a suggestion by Mike and Rose for the three most likely to be problematic images (as a step short of deletion in case a fair use or other solution can be worked out in the next few days), but most of the other images, depending on their sources, are likely to be equally as problematic. We really need to know where they came from and what terms they're available under. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 05:43, 20 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I've found one of the generic images. It's public domain on Wikipedia. if Tom doesn't reappear in time to clarify and we can't find them the other generic images should be easy enough to replace with ones we can be confident about. Obviously, the three others are going to be a little bit harder to replace... -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 08:55, 20 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The images undocumented images are all generic or taken from ad materials. They are not critical to the argument of the entry so I simply removed them. --[[User:Jriley|Jriley]] 23:54, 20 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::You also removed the one I found documentation for. Most of the other images could be easily replaced by images that we can find the licencing terms for, preferably public domain. It might be useful to hold onto the problem images just long enough to upload their replacements. What I really want to do, though, is have replacements for the other aspects of the article previously illustrated by images that suits and lawyers could be expected to go after us for having up -- they were also useful points to have visually represented. ...Although if they were promotional images, there might be terms under which they're available that we could adhere to. I believe we need more graphics in most of our articles. Humans are inherently visually oriented, and the usefulness of Lunarpedia is enhanced by making use of this. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 22:15, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Topic==<br />
The symbiotic relationship that we have with plants and machines will play an important role in the future of moon's history. The article needs refinement... the black swans are out of the topic. This articles is organized like a college handout. --[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 22:48, 19 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
:Some people might find it useful to think of the relationship between people and our machines as symbiotic. We can leave it as an article on Lunarpedia but technically machines cannot be symbiotes because they are not alive. Attempting legal incorporation of a machine will not change that. Legal corporations are not alive. Any action a corporation takes must be taken by some human agent of the corporation acting on behalf of the corporation. A corporation is a legal organization of people that is documented by some state of the United States or a foreign state. It is not a living thing and it cannot be a symbiote. A machine can be the property of a corporation, but it cannot be a corporation. [[User:Farred|Farred]] 00:03, 20 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
::Although a human would program the machine and the machine would act following that program, unintended consequences may happen, such as stock trading programs crashing the market by following instructions to minimize losses, followed by humans capitalizing on the crash by buying cheap. What happens when machines start programming each other? [[User:Miros1|Rose/Miros]] 01:00, 20 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
:::A recent Wired cover article had a red-colored toy robot on its side. It firmly announced that Artificial Intelligence is here -- and that it's nothing at all like we expected. We seem to be building unconsciousnesses of enormous, if typically specialized capabilities. It's very possible that some combination of these plus some additional, to-be developed ''modules'' -- to borrow a term from Evolutionary Psychology -- will finally provide us with the Singularity level conscious AI we've been awaiting for more than half a century. -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 09:01, 20 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Maybe Black Swans needs to be its own article? Given the presence of discussion questions, I assume the whole article was intended as a starter/thought piece. Perhaps symbiosis is the wrong word; do we have other candidates? [[User:Miros1|Rose/Miros]] 01:00, 20 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: This Symboliotes entry was a reorganization of a paper written for another purpose and would work better here as several linked entries. It is in three distinct parts. The first part is on "why" and is somewhat out of place by the normal logic of a technical article. It appears first first because reading the technical discussion first tends reduce the number of readers who ever read past it into the why section. People simply like "why" better than "what".<br />
<br />
:: The black swans make a somewhat out of context appearance because the "why" of the whole article is to force out-of-box thinking. Yes, we really do need a full article on black swans as we are doing our up-most to generate some.<br />
<br />
:: The third section, legal robot people, is an argument ad adsurbum. Making corporations people logically leads to making robots people. If you do not accept the second idea, then you should not accept the first idea. Again this is a rather desperate attempt to get a raise out of somebody at a time when the Moon is a dead subject.<br />
<br />
:: I do stand by the major concept however. To reinvigorate human space exploration for the 21st century, we must redesign everything. The place to start is '''not''' at the bottom with rockets and spacesuits but at the top with a complete re-conception of who human beings are and how we relate to our machines. Odd as it may seem, a spaceship that loves you is a good place to start. --[[User:Jriley|Jriley]] 00:20, 21 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::But a spaceship that hates you will leak air at all the wrong times.... [[User:Miros1|Rose/Miros]] 03:13, 21 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
::::We are getting out of focus here... Ideas: 1) We already have a symbiotic relationship with moneras, fungis, animals and plants... When discussing lunar medicine (even space station medicine) we know the imperative of keeping the proper amounts of microorganisms inside our body. Human-lunar and space settlements are indeed plants/animals/bacteria-lunar-settlements as well... At least in the near future is imperative to "settle" plants on the moon for a correct ISRU. 2)The discussion of re-conceptions of lunar settlements/architectures are another chapter and good soil for dialectic in new-articles. '''3) The article symbiotes has to be organized in a way that explain what symbiosis is and its relationship with the luna even before start to explain the ideas exposed by user Jriley about the human-machine symbiosis.'''<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
I find the topic interesting for dialectic. However, the article could be organized diferently. Right now it looks like a handout of a sociology... something... --[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 21:07, 25 January 2012 (UTC)</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Symbiotes&diff=17247Talk:Symbiotes2012-01-19T22:48:39Z<p>Jotagiraldez: </p>
<hr />
<div>We need to rethink our design of lunar settlements in view of new information and new concepts. This is a start of that design effort.<br />
<br />
As with all design efforts we must start at the top. Our relationship to our machines is at the very top of any design involving man in space.<br />
<br />
I look forward to your input.<br />
<br />
<br />
Thanks,<br />
--[[User:Jriley|Jriley]] 17:47, 14 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Copyright questions about images in article== <br />
There are some image files that seem to me to be neither public domain nor the property of Jriley. There is "Steve Jobs & iPhone", "Terminator, Defleshed" and "HAL200101.jpg". There is no clear attestation of public domain or original work for a number of other images. What I propose to do is leave the black swan graph and robonaut images and delete the rest. If there is good reason to believe that Jriley has the right to publish these images, now is the time to make this clear. There has been much sentiment for new restrictive laws that could put Wikis out of action for even suspected copyright violations. I do not want Lunarpedia to be an example of the copyright abuse that backers of such laws can point to and say: "See, that is the flagrant abuse we are trying to stop." [[User:Farred|Farred]] 23:10, 18 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Topic==<br />
The symbiotic relationship that we have with plants and machines will play an important role in the future of moon's history. The article needs refinement... the black swans are out of the topic. This articles is organized like a college handout. --[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 22:48, 19 January 2012 (UTC)</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Jose_Giraldez&diff=16980Jose Giraldez2011-12-27T15:24:57Z<p>Jotagiraldez: </p>
<hr />
<div>Industrial Engineer Senior, University of Lima, Peru. LDS Church ex-missionary and a Manufacturing Engineer Junior, Brigham Young University, Utah. 24 Year-old NERD and Lunar Enthusiast.<br />
<br />
[[File:Jotagiraldez.jpg|right|thumb|Jose Giraldez]]<br />
<br />
<br />
== Published Articles ==<br />
<br />
* [[Lunar Aluminium Production]]<br />
* [[Lunar Settlement Artificial Atmosphere]]<br />
* [[Hydroponics]]<br />
* [[Public Domain]]<br />
* [[Lunar Settlement]]<br />
*[[Lunar Life Support Parameters]]<br />
<br />
== Other Contributions ==<br />
<br />
* [[Transparent Aluminum]]<br />
* [[Aluminium Shielding]]<br />
* [[Microwaves ]]<br />
* [[Scientifiction]]</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Lunar_Settlement_Artificial_Atmosphere&diff=16556Lunar Settlement Artificial Atmosphere2011-09-04T09:02:03Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Pressure/Gas Combination */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Introduction ==<br />
A lunar habitat will require a pressurized mixture of gasses to sustain the life of the inhabitants. There is some experimental data with some artificial atmospheres, mostly from space stations like [[ISS into the Pacific|ISS]] or the [[MIR]]. These stations have been manned by human crew for extended periods of time. However, projected lunar habitats will manned for longer time frames, and more experimentation will be required on the effects of long term exposure. On the Moon, the atmosphere will be made in accordance with the architecture followed. Some variables include the use of [[Air Lock]]s, the thickness and materials of the walls, and other variables.<br />
<br />
== Pressure/Gas Combination ==<br />
<br />
Exact choice of a habitats internal pressure and gas combination will have various effects on the inhabitants and the structure itself. Pressure is expected to be used to support the lunar structure under normal operation, though the level required for this is low enough that virtually any livable level will be more than enough (see [[Roof Support]]). As such, the higher the habitat pressure, the stronger a habitat must be constructed to withstand it. In addition, a high pressure interior will loose atmosphere faster than a low pressure one if a leak is developed. The choice of gas combination will greatly effect the achievable pressures.<br />
<br />
Since [[Oxygen]] is expected to be a major by-product of [[manufacturing activities]] on the moon, a pure oxygen atmosphere is attractive as it is likely to be the easiest (and hence, cheapest) gas to procure on the moon. To avoid fires, the partial pressure of oxygen in the habitat must be kept to earth like levels (no more than 21 kPa / 3 psi). This low pressure is advantageous, and the lack of any filler gasses would greatly simplify atmospheric processing equipment. For these reasons, a pure oxygen atmosphere was utilized in the Gemini project, early designs of the Apollo spacecraft, and is currently used in spacesuits. However, some studies suggest that a pure oxygen atmosphere becomes poisonous to the inhabitants on long term exposure, making it unsuitable for a lunar habitat.<ref>Malina, Frank J., ed. Life Science Research and Lunar Medicine. London: A. Wheathon and Co. Ltd. 1967 pg. 3-4 </ref> However, as mentioned previously, a pure oxygen environment is useful for space suits, as pressure must be kept low in order for the suit to stay pliable. Using a pure oxygen environment for space suits and a high pressure mixed environment for the habitat would require a period of breathing pure oxygen before donning the suit in order to remove all nitrogen from the blood and avoid decompression sickness (also known the bends). This is currently practiced on the ISS.<br />
<br />
A combination of one or more [[inert gases]] with [[Oxygen]] would allow proper oxygenation over longer time-frames. Examples include [[nitrogen]], [[helium]], and [[argon]], all of which are present in the lunar regolith and can be extracted by heating (see [[volatiles]]). [[Nitrogen]] is attractive as it would allow for an earthlike mix, though the low availability of nitrogen in lunar soil (compared to other [[volatiles]]) could raise difficulties in this regard. [[Argon]], even less abundant than [[nitrogen]], would also have this problem. [[Helium]] could also be added to the oxygen mix, as it is more abundant in lunar soil, and its low density means significantly less mass is required for a given volume. However, the addition of any appreciable quantities of helium to the atmosphere would result in a higher vocal pitch for those persons breathing it, similar to (though less intense than) the effects of inhaling pure helium. This effect is currently seen on earth in very deep diving operations, where helium-oxygen mixes are utilized, sometimes facilitating the need for a digital voice alteration device.<br />
<br />
Another factor to consider with any combination is the direct effects of pressure. The most notable effect is in the boiling point of water, which would decrease with decreasing pressure.<br />
<br />
{| border=1<br />
! colspan="2" | Total Pressure !! colspan = "2" | Boiling Point Of Water !! Comments<br />
|-<br />
| kPa || psi || °C || °F || <br />
|-<br />
| 101.3 || 14.2 || 100 || 212 || Sea Level, ISS<br />
|-<br />
| 84 || 12.17 || 95 || 203 || Denver, a high altitude city<br />
|-<br />
| 81.4 || 11.74 || 94 || 201 || Mexico City, a high altitude city<br />
|-<br />
| 74.0 || 10.2 || 92 || 197 || Open airplane, ISS ports<br />
|-<br />
| 59.1 || 8.3 || 86 || 187 || ISS spacesuit<br />
|-<br />
| 33.5 || 4.7 || 72 || 162 || Apollo spacesuit<br />
|-<br />
| 30.6 || 4.3 || 70 || 158 || Shuttle spacesuit<br />
|-<br />
| 26.0 || 3.65 || 66 || 152 || Top of Mount Everest<br />
|}<br />
<br />
The main problem this would pose would be cooking of food, as lower boiling points would make many foods impractical to cook. However, these foods could still be prepared using a pressure cooker. Many hikers utilize lightweight pressure cookers for this purpose when climbing to high altitudes, and adapting such devices to lunar use should not be difficult.<br />
<br />
== Agriculture ==<br />
<br />
Plants <ref>Henninger, D. L., ed. Lunar Base Agriculture. Texas: NASA & Soil Science Society of America. ISBN 0- 89118-100-8 Introduction</ref>, like humans, are capable of tolerating lower atmospheric pressure so long as all required gasses are available. Some studies indicate that plants can survive at pressures lower than any human can. Whatever the pressure, an environment optimized for plant growth would benefit from having an atmosphere enriched with carbon dioxide, as they would grow faster. This enrichment is used in some terrestrial greenhouses for both growth boosting and pest control, as plants will tolerate co2 levels that will kill insects.<br />
<br />
== See Also ==<br />
*[[Atmosphere]]<br />
*[[Lunar Atmosphere]]<br />
*[[Lunar Life Support Parameters]]<br />
*[[Lunar Settlement]]<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references/></div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Jose_Giraldez&diff=16075Jose Giraldez2011-03-08T18:24:19Z<p>Jotagiraldez: </p>
<hr />
<div>Industrial Engineer Senior, University of Lima, Peru. LDS Church ex-missionary and a Manufacturing Engineer Junior, Brigham Young University, Utah. 23 Year-old NERD and Lunar Enthusiast.<br />
<br />
[[File:Jotagiraldez.jpg|right|thumb|Jose Giraldez]]<br />
<br />
<br />
== Published Articles ==<br />
<br />
* [[Lunar Aluminium Production]]<br />
* [[Lunar Settlement Artificial Atmosphere]]<br />
* [[Hydroponics]]<br />
* [[Public Domain]]<br />
* [[Lunar Settlement]]<br />
*[[Lunar Life Support Parameters]]<br />
<br />
== Other Contributions ==<br />
<br />
* [[Transparent Aluminum]]<br />
* [[Aluminium Shielding]]<br />
* [[Microwaves ]]<br />
* [[Scientifiction]]</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Selene_Alliance&diff=16072Talk:Selene Alliance2011-02-25T22:11:32Z<p>Jotagiraldez: </p>
<hr />
<div>==Cartography==<br />
Noting that the typeface I picked for the N to point North was something called UnPilgi Bold... -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 12:55, 12 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Proposed response to attacks==<br />
# We will deploy as _our_ _needs_ require, including but not limited to<br />
## defending,<br />
## liberating,<br />
## occupying, or<br />
## garrisoning towns of our choice.<br />
# Only the person attacked is allowed to counter-attack. This person may designate a counter-attacker. The designee may be anyone, regardless of score.<br />
# Once the original attacker attacks another member of our alliance, that second member may counter attack as well.<br />
# If you have a problem with a certain member of our alliance,<br />
## make yourself a non-target and<br />
## feel free to counter attack. <br />
<br />
Please comment and put <pre>~~~~</pre> at the end to "sign" with your username.<br />
[[User:Miros1|Rose/Miros]] 23:57, 7 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Seems reasonable to me. [[User:Dcarson|Dcarson]] 00:01, 8 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Seems reasonable to me also. [[User:Mdelaney|Mdelaney]] 02:20, 13 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Still pondering this phraseology. I actually liked the first iteration in ASI MOO better. Its bluntness gave it needed clarity.<br />
:For reference, unless I've been given advance notice to not do so, I will jump in on any occupation, blockade, or other seemingly hostile action for neighboring (and in some cases not so neighboring) allied players, especially smaller, poorly defended ones who are actively building up. If crushing the occupiers or cutting off their escape route from someplace else they're attacking is something you don't want me doing, <FONT style="font-variant:small-caps">tell me in advance.</FONT> -- [[User:Strangelv|Strangelv]] 02:27, 13 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Proposed plausible deniability policy ==<br />
<br />
In the event of a wider conflict between other alliances, it may sometimes be prudent overlook occupation of some of our towns as this allows plausible deniability of involvement in the conflict while still aiding our friends. This policy should be unofficial and only implemented during official wars. We should be informed of any such proposed occupation beforehand in the interests of saving our troops. This is a very gray area that needs to be discussed, and if adopted, remain unpublished.<br />
<br />
-- [[User:Mdelaney|Mdelaney]] 03:22, 13 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Idea to get gold to new players==<br />
Give them a couple ships of wood to sell back to us at 99 gold each. This will give them money to buy their own ships instead of having us drag stuff to them.<br />
<br />
==Re-defining purpose of Lunarpedia==<br />
<br />
The article does present any encyclopedic topic/category/knowledge... I propose to move it to scientifiction.org --[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 20:30, 12 January 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
This article shouldn't be in Lunarpedia!!!!!!--[[User:Jotagiraldez|Jose Giraldez]] 22:11, 25 February 2011 (UTC)</div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Hydroponics&diff=16039Hydroponics2011-01-12T20:34:34Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Nutrients */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hydroponics is a technology for growing plants in nutrient solutions with or without the use of an artificial medium to provide mechanical support.<br />
<br />
For nutrient solutions we understand [[water]] containing the appropriate salts and compounds. Plants rely in water and nutrients (that must be in their ionic form), for this reason, it is impossible to replace the water for the nutrient solutions representing a necessary payload to carry for an extended lunar mission and /or the first steps or the lunar colonization. Since it is possible to obtain water from lunar materials, the concern is to calculate what amount of this water is going to be destined for the hydroponic system.<br />
<br />
== Nutrients ==<br />
<sub>''See also: [[Plant nutrients]]''</sub><br />
<br />
The most important dissolved ions needed are Ca<sup>2+</sup>, Mg<sup>2+</sup>, K<sup>+</sup>, NO<sub>3</sub><sup>-</sup> (nitrate), SO<sub>4</sub><sup>2−</sup> (sulfate), and H<sub>2</sub>PO<sub>4</sub><sup>-</sup> (dihydrogen phosphate).<ref>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroponics</ref><br />
<br />
Commonly used chemicals for the nutrients include potassium nitrate, calcium nitrate, potassium phosphate, and magnesium sulfate. Various micronutrients are typically added to hydroponic solutions to supply essential elements; among them are Fe, Mn, Cu, Zn, B, Cl, and Ni. Chelating agents are sometimes used to keep Fe soluble.<ref>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroponics</ref><br />
<br />
== Aeroponics ==<br />
<br />
The question regarding how to manufacture this nutrients in the Moon is still a question without answer. However, how to save water means to use aeroponics: growing plants in an air/mist environment with no soil and very little water.<ref>http://www.nasa.gov/missions/science/biofarming.html</ref><br />
<br />
Aeroponics is the type of hydrophonics that economizes 98% of the water. It means in essence to spray the roots of the plants with the nutrient solution. NASA has been using this technique in experiments with the space shuttle and International Space Station since 1990.<ref>http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/technologies/aeroponic_plants.html</ref><br />
<br />
Aeroponic systems are much better with the oxygenation of the plants roots. Oxygen/air intake is very important to growing healthy plants. Both the mist or fog allows the root systems to grow a lot of fine hair like extensions on the roots because of the small particle sizes of the water droplets. This significantly increases the surface area of the root system, and allows the roots to uptake both the nutrients and oxygen/air more efficiently than they would in a typical hydroponic system. This factor also allows the plants to grow faster than they would in a typical hydroponic system.<ref>http://www.hydroponicsonline.com/blog/aeroponics-vs-hydroponics</ref> <ref>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroponics</ref><br />
== See Also ==<br />
<br />
*[[LUNAX]]<br />
*[[Lunar Manufacturing]]<br />
*[[Lunar Plant Nutrients Manufacturing Process]]<br />
<br />
== References == <br />
<references/></div>Jotagiraldezhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Lunar_Settlement_Artificial_Atmosphere&diff=16038Lunar Settlement Artificial Atmosphere2011-01-12T20:32:36Z<p>Jotagiraldez: /* Gas Combination */</p>
<hr />
<div>The lunar colony will have a pressurized selection of acceptable gaseous environments. We have experimental knowledge with some artificial atmospheres,say, space stations like [[ISS into the Pacific|ISS]] or the [[MIR]]. Yet, we need to experiment more on the effects of long term exposure. On the Moon, the atmosphere will be made in accordance with the architecture followed. Some variables like the use of [[Air Lock]]s, the thickness and materials of the walls may change the gas composition, pressure and other variables.<br />
<br />
== Gas Combination ==<br />
<sub>See also: [[Atmosphere]]</sub><br />
<br />
Full oxygen Atmosphere or gas combination?. Pure [[Oxygen]] was used in the first Gemini Missions and it is a fact that oxygen will be a major by-product of the [[manufacturing activities]] on the Moon. It would be very easy to fill reasonable big spaces with Oxygen. However, in a long term exposure, pure oxygen becomes poisonous.<ref>Malina, Frank J., ed. Life Science Research and Lunar Medicine. London: A. Wheathon and Co. Ltd. 1967 pg. 3-4 </ref> A combination of one or more [[inert gases]] with Oxygen would allow normal life and proper oxygenation. An example: a mix of 80% [[Helium ]]and 20% oxygen. (a mix with about 60% oxygen would be ideal) <br />
<br />
<br />
Nitrogen would be used on the moon as nitrates, part of the [[Plant Nutrients]]. The Moon does not have any trace of [[Nitrogen]]; therefore, this gas would be imported from Earth. It is very easy that nitrogen leaks from the solutions getting dissolved in the artificial atmosphere. An strict control has to be used to ensure the proper utilization of nitrogen. Other gas that will be present in the artificial atmosphere are CO<sub>2</sub> and H<sub>2</sub>O.<br />
<br />
== Lower Pressure ==<br />
<br />
Plants <ref>Henninger, D. L., ed. Lunar Base Agriculture. Texas: NASA & Soil Science Society of America. ISBN 0- 89118-100-8 Introduction</ref> and Humans can live in lower pressure atmospheres properly oxygenated. The limit is clear: when the vapor of a liquid inside equals the pressure outside, the liquid boils. Blood and other body fluids will boil if an abrupt drop of the pressure occurs.<br />
<br />
We would need to lower the pressure inside the buildings to lower the force applied to the walls (somewhere around 40kPa would be ideal for many structures). Also, precise atmospheric pressure controls would be needed to prevent gas leaking.<br />
<br />
== See Also ==<br />
*[[Atmosphere]]<br />
*[[Lunar Atmosphere]]<br />
*[[Lunar Life Support Parameters]]<br />
*[[Lunar Settlement]]<br />
<br />
== References ==<br />
<references/></div>Jotagiraldez