https://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:New_moon_base_concepts&feed=atom&action=historyTalk:New moon base concepts - Revision history2024-03-29T13:04:04ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.34.2https://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:New_moon_base_concepts&diff=116742&oldid=prevFarred: fix typos2022-04-09T19:22:44Z<p>fix typos</p>
<a href="//lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:New_moon_base_concepts&diff=116742&oldid=116741">Show changes</a>Farredhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:New_moon_base_concepts&diff=116741&oldid=prevFarred: add missing word, fix typo2022-04-09T18:43:59Z<p>add missing word, fix typo</p>
<a href="//lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:New_moon_base_concepts&diff=116741&oldid=116031">Show changes</a>Farredhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:New_moon_base_concepts&diff=116031&oldid=prevFarred: addition2019-10-13T21:00:01Z<p>addition</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 21:00, 13 October 2019</td>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:Bronze age total war made a sad sort of sense. Modern age total war with nuclear, biological and chemical weapons would be insane.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:Bronze age total war made a sad sort of sense. Modern age total war with nuclear, biological and chemical weapons would be insane.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:It is possible for international law to be effective in outlawing spaceborne offensive weapons if nations are willing to agree to such terms with verifiability. There is plenty of wealth for everybody if we can agree upon reasonable ways of sharing it and the US federal government stops its deficit financing. The obstacles to a millennium of prosperity for humanity are economic and political. The technical problems can be handled with a reasonable international effort.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:It is possible for international law to be effective in outlawing spaceborne offensive weapons if nations are willing to agree to such terms with verifiability. There is plenty of wealth for everybody if we can agree upon reasonable ways of sharing it and the US federal government stops its deficit financing. The obstacles to a millennium of prosperity for humanity are economic and political. The technical problems can be handled with a reasonable international effort.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">:Current difficulties with dissident groups in China might interfere with China's space development efforts or interfere with other countries thinking it is a good time to make treaties with China concerning space development. As of the 9th of September 2019, there have been protests in Hong Kong suggesting that the People's Republic should recognize in Hong Kong greater democratic lawmaking power and more extensive human rights. I have some sympathy with these aims as a citizen of the U.S.A. who enjoys considerable opportunity to have input to public policy discussions and considerable guarantees that the government will recognize that I have certain human rights. The legal system of the People's Republic comes too close to marshal law to suit me. Unfortunately for those living in Hong Kong, they must deal with the People's Republic of China. Neither the USA nor the United Kingdom is willing to send military force to defend democratic governing rights in Hong Kong. The USA would be crazy to oppose the People's Republic militarily where its army can roll in anytime at will. It will take some time to develop a completely satisfactory system of recognition of human rights just as a man does not become a fat man with one big meal. What the Hong Kong protesters are doing may not be helping. I do not see it likely that calling upon the U.S.A to guarantee recognition of human rights in Hong Kong will result in effective help from the U.S.A. in solving disagreements in Hong Kong. The U.S.A. can offer words to Hong Kong. The protesters, being closer to the disagreements, should be better placed to find words that improve the situation. I suggest they forego having tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people marching around. They should meet in smaller groups to discuss what petitions made to the People's Republic (with respect and recognition of the right of the current government to govern) might lead to some improvement. The fact is that most governments on the Earth can trace their right to govern to violent conflicts. So does the People's Republic. They are unlikely to voluntarily relinquish some governing power without extensive deliberate consideration. The U.S.A. will not just tell them what to do. If, against the odds, many popular protests all around China brought down the People's Republic, the result could possibly be chaos that would make the People's Republic seem better by comparison. As for Donald Trump putting pressure on China, I think he is just trying to make China a scapegoat for problems that the U.S.A. has caused for itself. The people of Hong Kong, the Uighurs, and the people around Tiananmen Square might consider making some accommodation with the People's Republic. Voluntary allegiance has some value as a consideration. The People's Republic might be willing to offer something valuable in exchange. The people of Hong Kong must know themselves what they will offer for better terms of relationship and for what they are willing to suffer possible imprisonment, death and worse. The People's Republic is certainly capable of being cruel if it suits the purpose. The fact that there is currently a "trade war" being waged between the U.S.A. and the People's Republic should not have the slightest affect in motivating protesters. It is heartening to know that some people far away hold the U.S.A. in high regard but I would hope that they do nothing rash in supposed support of the U.S.A.'s interests. </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>-- [[User:Farred|Farred]] ([[User talk:Farred|talk]]) made last alteration on <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">16 December </del>2019, at <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">17</del>:<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">20</del>.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">:When disagreements between the People's Republic and some dissident groups are somewhat more settled, increased cooperation between the U.S.A. and the People's Republic on outer space development might not raise so much objection.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>-- [[User:Farred|Farred]] ([[User talk:Farred|talk]]) made last alteration on <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">13 October </ins>2019, at <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">21</ins>:<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">59</ins>.</div></td></tr>
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</table>Farredhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:New_moon_base_concepts&diff=116029&oldid=prevFarred: fix typos2019-09-10T22:20:09Z<p>fix typos</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 22:20, 10 September 2019</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l138" >Line 138:</td>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Thirtieth, do you have rocks in your head? The People's Republic of China is an enemy. You admit military applications (third objection) but suggest treaties with China governing the development of the moon. We need to keep potential military applications out of China's hands. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Thirtieth, do you have rocks in your head? The People's Republic of China is an enemy. You admit military applications (third objection) but suggest treaties with China governing the development of the moon. We need to keep potential military applications out of China's hands. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:If the USA could arrange the physical characteristics of the solar system and the political situation of Earth by political decree, it could develop the industrial potential of the moon without involving other nations that look at things differently than the US congress. Since we must involve other nations, let's look at who our enemies are and what sorts of arrangements could possibly be beneficial. Who put the many trillion dollar debt on the USA? It was the US government acting under the influence of lobbyists for various organizations such as medical organizations, defense contractors, teachers' organizations, and retired persons. The list of lobbyists trying to get a piece of the federal budget is too long for this discussion but people who allow such lobbyists to control federal spending with no concern for the federal debt are the enemies of the USA. That is: US citizens are their own worst enemies. The potential financial catastrophe could be worse than anything that China is planning for the US. Exact outcomes cannot be predicted but the potential for something worse than the great depression is a reason for some of the preparations for bugging out that are seen in people preparing access to nonurban property, learning gardening, storing essentials, and having a bug-out vehicle to get to their destination by driving off the road around traffic jams. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:If the USA could arrange the physical characteristics of the solar system and the political situation of Earth by political decree, it could develop the industrial potential of the moon without involving other nations that look at things differently than the US congress. Since we must involve other nations, let's look at who our enemies are and what sorts of arrangements could possibly be beneficial. Who put the many trillion dollar debt on the USA? It was the US government acting under the influence of lobbyists for various organizations such as medical organizations, defense contractors, teachers' organizations, and retired persons. The list of lobbyists trying to get a piece of the federal budget is too long for this discussion but people who allow such lobbyists to control federal spending with no concern for the federal debt are the enemies of the USA. That is: US citizens are their own worst enemies. The potential financial catastrophe could be worse than anything that China is planning for the US. Exact outcomes cannot be predicted but the potential for something worse than the great depression is a reason for some of the preparations for bugging out that are seen in people preparing access to nonurban property, learning gardening, storing essentials, and having a bug-out vehicle to get to their destination by driving off the road around traffic jams. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The People's Republic of China is a problem because of their absolute insistence upon putting Taiwan under communist party control regardless of political and economic costs. It is their unifying purpose. If anyone does not agree with that they are not only kept out of political power, they risk prison. It is a case of self-reinforcement of an extreme position. However, China does bow to reality to the extent that they will put off their goal until they are confidant that they can succeed. Considering the shore of Taiwan as approximately a natural fortress protected by advanced anti-ship missiles with the USA guaranteeing access to trade, the People's Republic might need wait a long time. Satellite observations can pin-point naval targets like shipborne <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">a </del>invasion force and vessels that anti-ship missiles cannot knock out, submarine launched weapons that travel submerged to their target can. The high velocity canons to stop anti-ship missiles can be overwhelmed by a high number of targets and the guns can be blinded by a rain of chaff and other countermeasures such has not yet been deployed in an actual war. I cannot list all of the reasons that an invasion of Taiwan from the People's Republic is not realistic without cooperation from Taiwan or the USA failing to defend Taiwan from blockade. It is just best for China to put unification under the communist party on the back burner and agree to disallow by international agreement any orbital or lunar weapons with the potential to do significant military harm to targets on Earth or flying at altitudes of less than 7.5 miles (12,000 meters, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">4</del>,000 feet). If China were to succeed in putting Taiwan under rule from the continent, it would face more difficult factional problems internally that could bring it to an end, but it might succeed in taking over Taiwan as conditions change with time. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The People's Republic of China is a problem because of their absolute insistence upon putting Taiwan under communist party control regardless of political and economic costs. It is their unifying purpose. If anyone does not agree with that they are not only kept out of political power, they risk prison. It is a case of self-reinforcement of an extreme position. However, China does bow to reality to the extent that they will put off their goal until they are confidant that they can succeed. Considering the shore of Taiwan as approximately a natural fortress protected by advanced anti-ship missiles with the USA guaranteeing access to trade, the People's Republic might need wait a long time. Satellite observations can pin-point naval targets like <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">a </ins>shipborne invasion force and vessels that anti-ship missiles cannot knock out, submarine launched weapons that travel submerged to their target can. The high velocity canons to stop anti-ship missiles can be overwhelmed by a high number of targets and the guns can be blinded by a rain of chaff and other countermeasures such has not yet been deployed in an actual war. I cannot list all of the reasons that an invasion of Taiwan from the People's Republic is not realistic without cooperation from Taiwan or the USA failing to defend Taiwan from blockade. It is just best for China to put unification under the communist party on the back burner and agree to disallow by international agreement any orbital or lunar weapons with the potential to do significant military harm to targets on Earth or flying at altitudes of less than 7.5 miles (12,000 meters, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">40</ins>,000 feet). If China were to succeed in putting Taiwan under rule from the continent, it would face more difficult factional problems internally that could bring it to an end, but it might succeed in taking over Taiwan as conditions change with time. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The fact that the People's Republic expressly refuses to forego violence in taking over the governing of Taiwan indicates that they likely see the possibility that opponents to such a development might refrain from going to total war to prevent it. Total war between two modern nations, such as the United States and the People's Republic of China, would cause harm far exceeding any possible gain from winning the war. Total war is simple to understand. It is based upon the method of accounting benefit in which gaining factories, gold, weapons, or agriculture is accounted the same benefit as destroying equivalent factories, gold, weapons or agriculture of the enemy. It continues until one side or the other concedes defeat or has been completely destroyed. The most illustrative examples I can think of are from the Greek bronze age. One city fought until it had killed every man of age for military duty in the enemy city. The enemy city was taken over as booty. Women and boys of age ten and less were taken as slaves with the boys separated from their mothers. If peace were achieved with merely exchanging some piece of land or paying some money, the loosing side would be allowed to keep their weapons, wives and children. It was assumed that a free man would rather die than give up weapons, wife or children. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The fact that the People's Republic expressly refuses to forego violence in taking over the governing of Taiwan indicates that they likely see the possibility that opponents to such a development might refrain from going to total war to prevent it. Total war between two modern nations, such as the United States and the People's Republic of China, would cause harm far exceeding any possible gain from winning the war. Total war is simple to understand. It is based upon the method of accounting benefit in which gaining factories, gold, weapons, or agriculture is accounted the same benefit as destroying equivalent factories, gold, weapons or agriculture of the enemy. It continues until one side or the other concedes defeat or has been completely destroyed. The most illustrative examples I can think of are from the Greek bronze age. One city fought until it had killed every man of age for military duty in the enemy city. The enemy city was taken over as booty. Women and boys of age ten and less were taken as slaves with the boys separated from their mothers. If peace were achieved with merely exchanging some piece of land or paying some money, the loosing side would be allowed to keep their weapons, wives and children. It was assumed that a free man would rather die than give up weapons, wife or children. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:Bronze age total war made a sad sort of sense. Modern age total war with nuclear, biological and chemical weapons would be insane.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:Bronze age total war made a sad sort of sense. Modern age total war with nuclear, biological and chemical weapons would be insane.</div></td></tr>
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</table>Farredhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:New_moon_base_concepts&diff=115985&oldid=prevFarred: fix typos2019-06-26T22:36:51Z<p>fix typos</p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Thirtieth, do you have rocks in your head? The People's Republic of China is an enemy. You admit military applications (third objection) but suggest treaties with China governing the development of the moon. We need to keep potential military applications out of China's hands. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Thirtieth, do you have rocks in your head? The People's Republic of China is an enemy. You admit military applications (third objection) but suggest treaties with China governing the development of the moon. We need to keep potential military applications out of China's hands. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:If the USA could arrange the physical characteristics of the solar system and the political situation of Earth by political decree, it could develop the industrial potential of the moon without involving other nations that look at things differently than the US congress. Since we must involve other nations, let's look at who our enemies are and what sorts of arrangements could possibly be beneficial. Who put the many trillion dollar debt on the USA? It was the US government acting under the influence of lobbyists for various organizations such as medical organizations, defense contractors, teachers' organizations, and retired persons. The list of lobbyists trying to get a piece of the federal budget is too long for this discussion but people who allow such lobbyists to control federal spending with no concern for the federal debt are the enemies of the USA. That is: US citizens are their own worst enemies. The potential financial catastrophe could be worse than anything that China is planning for the US. Exact outcomes cannot be predicted but the potential for something worse than the great depression is a reason for some of the preparations for bugging out that are seen in people preparing access to nonurban property, learning gardening, storing essentials, and having a bug out vehicle to get to their destination by driving off the road around traffic jams. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:If the USA could arrange the physical characteristics of the solar system and the political situation of Earth by political decree, it could develop the industrial potential of the moon without involving other nations that look at things differently than the US congress. Since we must involve other nations, let's look at who our enemies are and what sorts of arrangements could possibly be beneficial. Who put the many trillion dollar debt on the USA? It was the US government acting under the influence of lobbyists for various organizations such as medical organizations, defense contractors, teachers' organizations, and retired persons. The list of lobbyists trying to get a piece of the federal budget is too long for this discussion but people who allow such lobbyists to control federal spending with no concern for the federal debt are the enemies of the USA. That is: US citizens are their own worst enemies. The potential financial catastrophe could be worse than anything that China is planning for the US. Exact outcomes cannot be predicted but the potential for something worse than the great depression is a reason for some of the preparations for bugging out that are seen in people preparing access to nonurban property, learning gardening, storing essentials, and having a bug<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">-</ins>out vehicle to get to their destination by driving off the road around traffic jams. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The People's Republic of China is a problem because of their absolute insistence upon putting Taiwan under communist party control regardless of political and economic costs. It is their unifying purpose. If anyone does not agree with that they are not only kept out of political power, they risk prison. It is a case of self-reinforcement of an extreme position. However, China does bow to reality to the extent that they will put off their goal until they are confidant that they can succeed. Considering the shore of Taiwan as approximately a natural fortress protected by advanced anti-ship missiles with the USA guaranteeing access to trade, the People's Republic might need wait a long time. Satellite observations can pin-point naval targets like shipborne invasion force and vessels that anti-ship missiles cannot knock out, submarine launched weapons that travel submerged to their target can. The high velocity canons to stop anti-ship missiles can be overwhelmed by a high number of targets and the guns can be blinded by a rain of chaff and other countermeasures such has not yet been deployed in an actual war. I cannot list all of the reasons that an invasion of Taiwan from the People's Republic is not realistic without cooperation from Taiwan or the USA failing to defend Taiwan from blockade. It is just best for China to put unification under the communist party on the back burner and agree to disallow by international agreement any orbital or lunar weapons with the potential to do significant military harm to targets on Earth or flying at altitudes of less than 7.5 miles (12,000 meters, 4,000 feet). If China were to succeed in putting Taiwan under rule from the continent, it would face more difficult factional problems internally that could bring it to an end, but it might succeed in taking over Taiwan as conditions change with time. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The People's Republic of China is a problem because of their absolute insistence upon putting Taiwan under communist party control regardless of political and economic costs. It is their unifying purpose. If anyone does not agree with that they are not only kept out of political power, they risk prison. It is a case of self-reinforcement of an extreme position. However, China does bow to reality to the extent that they will put off their goal until they are confidant that they can succeed. Considering the shore of Taiwan as approximately a natural fortress protected by advanced anti-ship missiles with the USA guaranteeing access to trade, the People's Republic might need wait a long time. Satellite observations can pin-point naval targets like shipborne <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">a </ins>invasion force and vessels that anti-ship missiles cannot knock out, submarine launched weapons that travel submerged to their target can. The high velocity canons to stop anti-ship missiles can be overwhelmed by a high number of targets and the guns can be blinded by a rain of chaff and other countermeasures such has not yet been deployed in an actual war. I cannot list all of the reasons that an invasion of Taiwan from the People's Republic is not realistic without cooperation from Taiwan or the USA failing to defend Taiwan from blockade. It is just best for China to put unification under the communist party on the back burner and agree to disallow by international agreement any orbital or lunar weapons with the potential to do significant military harm to targets on Earth or flying at altitudes of less than 7.5 miles (12,000 meters, 4,000 feet). If China were to succeed in putting Taiwan under rule from the continent, it would face more difficult factional problems internally that could bring it to an end, but it might succeed in taking over Taiwan as conditions change with time. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The fact that the People's Republic expressly refuses to forego violence in taking over the governing of Taiwan indicates that they likely see the possibility that opponents to such a development might refrain from going to total war to prevent it. Total war between two modern nations, such as the United States and the People's Republic of China, would cause harm far exceeding any possible gain from winning the war. Total war is simple to understand. It is based upon the method of accounting benefit in which gaining factories, gold, weapons, or agriculture is accounted the same benefit as destroying equivalent factories, gold, weapons or agriculture of the enemy. It continues until one side or the other concedes defeat or has been completely destroyed. The most illustrative examples I can think of are from the Greek bronze age. One city fought until it had killed every man of age for military duty in the enemy city. The enemy city was taken over as booty. Women and boys of age ten and less were taken as slaves with the boys separated from their mothers. If peace were achieved with merely exchanging some piece of land or paying some money, the loosing side would be allowed to keep their weapons, wives and children. It was assumed that a free man would rather die than give up weapons, wife or children. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The fact that the People's Republic expressly refuses to forego violence in taking over the governing of Taiwan indicates that they likely see the possibility that opponents to such a development might refrain from going to total war to prevent it. Total war between two modern nations, such as the United States and the People's Republic of China, would cause harm far exceeding any possible gain from winning the war. Total war is simple to understand. It is based upon the method of accounting benefit in which gaining factories, gold, weapons, or agriculture is accounted the same benefit as destroying equivalent factories, gold, weapons or agriculture of the enemy. It continues until one side or the other concedes defeat or has been completely destroyed. The most illustrative examples I can think of are from the Greek bronze age. One city fought until it had killed every man of age for military duty in the enemy city. The enemy city was taken over as booty. Women and boys of age ten and less were taken as slaves with the boys separated from their mothers. If peace were achieved with merely exchanging some piece of land or paying some money, the loosing side would be allowed to keep their weapons, wives and children. It was assumed that a free man would rather die than give up weapons, wife or children. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:Bronze age total war made a sad sort of sense. Modern age total war with nuclear, biological and chemical weapons would be insane.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:Bronze age total war made a sad sort of sense. Modern age total war with nuclear, biological and chemical weapons would be insane.</div></td></tr>
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</table>Farredhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:New_moon_base_concepts&diff=115827&oldid=prevFarred: tweaks2019-05-29T20:09:13Z<p>tweaks</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 20:09, 29 May 2019</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l24" >Line 24:</td>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:How close has NASA come to accepting the truth that men in space suits are not efficient agents for accomplishing any industrial task? They have admitted that the construction of a first moon base might possibly begin with robot labor.<ref>[https://sservi.nasa.gov/articles/robots-may-start-moon-base-construction/ Robots May Start Moon Base Construction]</ref> When there is a landing pad and robotic equipment to help people disembark a spacecraft it is not time to rejoice and say, "Now we have succeeded in our mission because there will be people on the moon. If astronauts do nothing worth more to the average taxpayer than pick their noses, we've still succeeded." No. There is still the building of the recycling life support system in a radiation shielded environment and placement of scientific equipment and machine tools to be used indoors. The decision on when people should arrive should be made based upon when their arrival will speed up the initial operation of efficient means of exporting material from the moon to build facilities in space. I expect a couple years worth of remote controlled construction at least, and perhaps a couple of decades. The time for people to just stare in awe to see people make footprints on the moon has past. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:How close has NASA come to accepting the truth that men in space suits are not efficient agents for accomplishing any industrial task? They have admitted that the construction of a first moon base might possibly begin with robot labor.<ref>[https://sservi.nasa.gov/articles/robots-may-start-moon-base-construction/ Robots May Start Moon Base Construction]</ref> When there is a landing pad and robotic equipment to help people disembark a spacecraft it is not time to rejoice and say, "Now we have succeeded in our mission because there will be people on the moon. If astronauts do nothing worth more to the average taxpayer than pick their noses, we've still succeeded." No. There is still the building of the recycling life support system in a radiation shielded environment and placement of scientific equipment and machine tools to be used indoors. The decision on when people should arrive should be made based upon when their arrival will speed up the initial operation of efficient means of exporting material from the moon to build facilities in space. I expect a couple years worth of remote controlled construction at least, and perhaps a couple of decades. The time for people to just stare in awe to see people make footprints on the moon has past. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The MIT Space, Policy, and Society Research Group (MSPSRG) wrote that the primary purposes of human space-flight were those that needed the presence of human beings while costing less than the benefits are worth. They failed to consider patiently delaying human space-flight until remote controlled machines on the moon could prepare a place to which it is <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">worth while </del>to go, so that human space-flight could actually fulfill a sensible purpose. They failed to consider the value of ceasing altogether the current program of launching astronauts. MSPSRG wrote that the ISS should be used to further the purposes of exploration, how? MSPSRG wrote that NASA should work on basic research to make future explorations possible, what research? They wrote that the U.S. should claim again that it is leading international human space-flight. If so, who is following? They ask why the government should be sending people to outer space? What good is obtained? Their analysis leads to the answer that no sensible good is obtained but I can only guess that in desperation to justify the current human space-flight appropriations they turned to national pride as a reason to justify human space-flight. MSPSRG proposes the question of whether there should be a different balance to the "equation" relating robotic to crewed missions of exploration. In answer to the MSPSRG, there is no equation relating what should be spent on robotic missions to outer space and crewed missions. Government expenditures should promote the common good in all cases. The most valuable missions should be funded without regard for whether they are crewed or robotic. When the task of putting people on Mars is reduced to a mere stunt engaged in so there can be a record of doing something very difficult, then it takes on the lowest value. As the SR-71 set a speed record on the 6th of March 1990 flying at an average speed of 2189 miles per hour from St. Louis to Cincinnati<ref>[https://www.sr-71.org/blackbird/records.php Blackbird Records]</ref> only after the Blackbird's usefulness as a spy plane had expired and there was no longer any need to keep its top speed classified; a nation does not properly build a costly technological wonder to get recognition in a record book, but only as a second thought when setting a record does not interfere with the primary purpose of the project should recognition in record books be sought. That the MSPSRG suggested the absurdity of national pride as a primary purpose of human space-flight is a true embarrassment, but such an absurdity is given as the purpose of federal spending for human space-flight. This can be explained by noting that there is political support for the appropriations from people who receive these appropriations as their paychecks, from businesses which receive these appropriations as payments from their government customer, and from political districts that receive these appropriations as money spent by the federal government within their borders. These political supporters are desperate for some way to justify the appropriations without claiming that they would otherwise be indigent and incapable of earning any livelihood. So, national pride they take as their rationalization for dipping into the public purse without doing a lick of good for the average tax payer. One might say that people all over the world wanted to be associated with U.S. educational institutions and businesses because of the prestige associated with putting men on the moon and bringing them back alive. However, Mars is not the moon. Everyone who can see has seen the moon in the night sky. Most people have never knowingly looked upon Mars in the sky and would not recognize it unless it were carefully pointed out to them. Now Mars is about 593 times further from Earth than the moon on the average. The unfortunate situation for those who wish to justify a journey to Mars as an impressive stunt is that distance makes Mars seem much smaller and the average person does not care for numerical expressions of how difficult a stunt is. The journey to Mars would just be tediously boring if offered as constant updates on the news. As the Mars mission would drag on month after month, people would turn off that channel or not read that article. As for sending people to the moon, the typical reaction would be: "What? Again? Why?" If congress wants a civilian space program that it can justify properly by its achievements, they can work toward providing plentiful electrical power from the sun with equipment in space built out of lunar materials. This accomplishment would be exempt from the curse of excess carbon dioxide emissions. GPS and gathering global weather data from space are worthy accomplishments but going into space as a stunt will not do. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The MIT Space, Policy, and Society Research Group (MSPSRG) wrote that the primary purposes of human space-flight were those that needed the presence of human beings while costing less than the benefits are worth. They failed to consider patiently delaying human space-flight until remote controlled machines on the moon could prepare a place to which it is <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">worthwhile </ins>to go, so that human space-flight could actually fulfill a sensible purpose. They failed to consider the value of ceasing altogether the current program of launching astronauts. MSPSRG wrote that the ISS should be used to further the purposes of exploration, how? MSPSRG wrote that NASA should work on basic research to make future explorations possible, what research? They wrote that the U.S. should claim again that it is leading international human space-flight. If so, who is following? They ask why the government should be sending people to outer space? What good is obtained? Their analysis leads to the answer that no sensible good is obtained but I can only guess that in desperation to justify the current human space-flight appropriations they turned to national pride as a reason to justify human space-flight. MSPSRG proposes the question of whether there should be a different balance to the "equation" relating robotic to crewed missions of exploration. In answer to the MSPSRG, there is no equation relating what should be spent on robotic missions to outer space and crewed missions. Government expenditures should promote the common good in all cases. The most valuable missions should be funded without regard for whether they are crewed or robotic. When the task of putting people on Mars is reduced to a mere stunt engaged in so there can be a record of doing something very difficult, then it takes on the lowest value. As the SR-71 set a speed record on the 6th of March 1990 flying at an average speed of 2189 miles per hour from St. Louis to Cincinnati<ref>[https://www.sr-71.org/blackbird/records.php Blackbird Records]</ref> only after the Blackbird's usefulness as a spy plane had expired and there was no longer any need to keep its top speed classified; a nation does not properly build a costly technological wonder to get recognition in a record book, but only as a second thought when setting a record does not interfere with the primary purpose of the project should recognition in record books be sought. That the MSPSRG suggested the absurdity of national pride as a primary purpose of human space-flight is a true embarrassment, but such an absurdity is given as the purpose of federal spending for human space-flight. This can be explained by noting that there is political support for the appropriations from people who receive these appropriations as their paychecks, from businesses which receive these appropriations as payments from their government customer, and from political districts that receive these appropriations as money spent by the federal government within their borders. These political supporters are desperate for some way to justify the appropriations without claiming that they would otherwise be indigent and incapable of earning any livelihood. So, national pride they take as their rationalization for dipping into the public purse without doing a lick of good for the average tax payer. One might say that people all over the world wanted to be associated with U.S. educational institutions and businesses because of the prestige associated with putting men on the moon and bringing them back alive. However, Mars is not the moon. Everyone who can see has seen the moon in the night sky. Most people have never knowingly looked upon Mars in the sky and would not recognize it unless it were carefully pointed out to them. Now Mars is about 593 times further from Earth than the moon on the average. The unfortunate situation for those who wish to justify a journey to Mars as an impressive stunt is that distance makes Mars seem much smaller and the average person does not care for numerical expressions of how difficult a stunt is. The journey to Mars would just be tediously boring if offered as constant updates on the news. As the Mars mission would drag on month after month, people would turn off that channel or not read that article. As for sending people to the moon, the typical reaction would be: "What? Again? Why?" If congress wants a civilian space program that it can justify properly by its achievements, they can work toward providing plentiful electrical power from the sun with equipment in space built out of lunar materials. This accomplishment would be exempt from the curse of excess carbon dioxide emissions. GPS and gathering global weather data from space are worthy accomplishments but going into space as a stunt will not do. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The MSPSRG wrote that people cannot currently make a profit on outer-space resources. Gerard K. O'Neil proposed using robots to mine the moon to build space-based solar power stations in geostationary orbit to beam energy to Earth for a profit. The system proposed did not fully specify the method of capturing at L2 materials that were to be shot off the moon in one kilogram packets once per second, and so it failed, but variations upon that plan can succeed. An industrial infrastructure on the moon capable of maintaining an economical launch system to launch hundreds of tons of cargo per year in service of building SBSP satellites would take many years to establish but it is possible if established by remote controlled equipment without the overhead of maintaining life support for human beings from the start. This should have been considered as affecting human space-flight because it means that human space-flight could be valuable for economic exploitation of the moon if human space-flight is subjected to a hiatus of perhaps twenty years during which remote controlled equipment prepares an industrial base and life support systems. Human space-flight without this preparatory activity by remote controlled machines lacks any reasonable justification. The idea that the risk of human life cannot be justified by economic gain does not apply in this case because 1) preparation of life support facilities on the moon prior to people arriving greatly reduces the risk and 2) the economic gain to be achieved is on a scale like the gain achieved by the industrial revolution.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The MSPSRG wrote that people cannot currently make a profit on outer-space resources. Gerard K. O'Neil proposed using robots to mine the moon to build space-based solar power stations in geostationary orbit to beam energy to Earth for a profit. The system proposed did not fully specify the method of capturing at L2 materials that were to be shot off the moon in one kilogram packets once per second, and so it failed, but variations upon that plan can succeed. An industrial infrastructure on the moon capable of maintaining an economical launch system to launch hundreds of tons of cargo per year in service of building SBSP satellites would take many years to establish but it is possible if established by remote controlled equipment without the overhead of maintaining life support for human beings from the start. This should have been considered as affecting human space-flight because it means that human space-flight could be valuable for economic exploitation of the moon if human space-flight is subjected to a hiatus of perhaps twenty years during which remote controlled equipment prepares an industrial base and life support systems. Human space-flight without this preparatory activity by remote controlled machines lacks any reasonable justification. The idea that the risk of human life cannot be justified by economic gain does not apply in this case because 1) preparation of life support facilities on the moon prior to people arriving greatly reduces the risk and 2) the economic gain to be achieved is on a scale like the gain achieved by the industrial revolution.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l85" >Line 85:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 85:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The billions spent on the ISS are already lost. There is no way to recover them. The ISS will never make a profit. Spending more on it by operating it longer will only increase the loss. There is some possible scrap value in the solar cells and wiring attached to the ISS. The possible value depends upon some plan for a remotely controlled device in orbit that can contribute to actual profit-making activity being able to make use of salvaged solar panels from the ISS. One might say, "Well, the ISS was never intended to make a profit." However the promoters of the ISS at first claimed that experiments done there would show how profit could be made in space industries. They were just wrong and keeping the ISS will still fail to recover any benefit commensurate with what is spent on it. The way to get reasonable return on space development is to leave those expensive nuisances called astronauts on Earth and send robots where robots belong to eventually produce life supporting infrastructure on the moon so humans can follow. Basic industrial infrastructure should come first. Life support is easier to build when there is some local industrial infrastructure. When people finally do return to the moon, they should be called passengers, not astronauts. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The billions spent on the ISS are already lost. There is no way to recover them. The ISS will never make a profit. Spending more on it by operating it longer will only increase the loss. There is some possible scrap value in the solar cells and wiring attached to the ISS. The possible value depends upon some plan for a remotely controlled device in orbit that can contribute to actual profit-making activity being able to make use of salvaged solar panels from the ISS. One might say, "Well, the ISS was never intended to make a profit." However the promoters of the ISS at first claimed that experiments done there would show how profit could be made in space industries. They were just wrong and keeping the ISS will still fail to recover any benefit commensurate with what is spent on it. The way to get reasonable return on space development is to leave those expensive nuisances called astronauts on Earth and send robots where robots belong to eventually produce life supporting infrastructure on the moon so humans can follow. Basic industrial infrastructure should come first. Life support is easier to build when there is some local industrial infrastructure. When people finally do return to the moon, they should be called passengers, not astronauts. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:As far as <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">loosing </del>the current astronaut program is concerned, nothing of value will be lost. At termination of the astronaut program, participants will write up their experiences, program procedures and lessons learned. The new batch of people sent to the moon will not be trained as test pilots, because that is not needed and would be a waste. What will be needed on the moon will be engineers; lab technicians and other technicians; machinists; remote control equipment operators and people trained in activating the redundant features of life support to possibly survive an accident. People can be capable of fulfilling more than one position. There will be techniques to learn that are specific to the industrialized moon. The training of the current group of astronauts will not be sufficient.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:As far as <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">losing </ins>the current astronaut program is concerned, nothing of value will be lost. At termination of the astronaut program, participants will write up their experiences, program procedures and lessons learned. The new batch of people sent to the moon will not be trained as test pilots, because that is not needed and would be a waste. What will be needed on the moon will be engineers; lab technicians and other technicians; machinists; remote control equipment operators and people trained in activating the redundant features of life support to possibly survive an accident. People can be capable of fulfilling more than one position. There will be techniques to learn that are specific to the industrialized moon. The training of the current group of astronauts will not be sufficient.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Twentieth, isn't this SBSP idea the same thing that people keep hyping as a high tech money-maker launching ultra light-weight carbon nanotube stuff into orbit to harvest free sunlight but with the profits always removed to some time after the investors money is taken. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Twentieth, isn't this SBSP idea the same thing that people keep hyping as a high tech money-maker launching ultra light-weight carbon nanotube stuff into orbit to harvest free sunlight but with the profits always removed to some time after the investors money is taken. </div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:Another consideration is magnetostriction. A magnetic field applied to an iron rail for levitation will also change the shape of the rail a small amount. Magnetostriction is what causes transformer hum. Magnetic levitation might possibly be decoupled from the structural strength of the rails by having a composite of a nonmagnetic matrix for stiffness and a magnetic component of the composite rail for levitation. Also spreading out the magnetic levitating field along the length of the rail reduces the intensity of the magnetization effects on any one spot thus reducing energy loss from a hysteresis loop and perhaps reducing difficulties with vibration. The cheapest solution that verifies the suitability of the technology for launch to orbit from the moon is what is sought. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:Another consideration is magnetostriction. A magnetic field applied to an iron rail for levitation will also change the shape of the rail a small amount. Magnetostriction is what causes transformer hum. Magnetic levitation might possibly be decoupled from the structural strength of the rails by having a composite of a nonmagnetic matrix for stiffness and a magnetic component of the composite rail for levitation. Also spreading out the magnetic levitating field along the length of the rail reduces the intensity of the magnetization effects on any one spot thus reducing energy loss from a hysteresis loop and perhaps reducing difficulties with vibration. The cheapest solution that verifies the suitability of the technology for launch to orbit from the moon is what is sought. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:There is also the possibility of gas lubricated rails. High pressure oxygen can be pumped into the feet of the rocket sled to maintain a small separation between the sled and the rails it slides over. This can extend even outside the long tube pressure vessel because losing oxygen to the vacuum is a small concern. If all of the rocket-sled techniques fail to be adaptable to lunar conditions, there is still the option of launching a rocket horizontally within the long tube pressure vessel and flying at a fixed distance from the walls. The rocket would be in orbit before the second stage leaves the pressure vessel with the first stage landing within the pressure vessel. Flying a rocket down the middle of a long tube is no more difficult than formation flying of aircraft on Earth, a demonstrated technique. It will be handled by robot pilots on Luna. <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">The </del>requirement to reverse rocket thrust to stop and land in the pressure vessel can be avoided. The first stage could land on rails outside of the pressure vessel by friction as the X-15 landed on rear landing gear consisting of skids.<ref>[https://www.nasa.gov/centers/armstrong/news/FactSheets/FS-052-DFRC.html NASA Armstrong Fact Sheet: X-15 Hypersonic Research Program]</ref> On the moon the landing speed would likely be in the neighborhood of 2200 meters per second rather than the 200 miles per hour landing of the X-15. The lunar landing gear might grab the rails from above and below and brush them with actual bristles of silicon dioxide that are progressively extended from the landing gear as the ends of the bristles are worn away with the generation of silicon dioxide gas. There is certainly a wealth of possible techniques that might be used on Luna depending upon which techniques are cheapest over-all. There is no technical difficulty that will completely prevent recycling spent rocket fuel on Luna. There is only the possibility that people will not make a sufficient effort to achieve low cost, high volume launch techniques on Luna. Improvements in technology can only make lunar launches cheaper over the years. I have written what is required. If you want your grandchildren, grandnieces and grandnephews to live in space, take hold of space and make it your own. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:There is also the possibility of gas lubricated rails. High pressure oxygen can be pumped into the feet of the rocket sled to maintain a small separation between the sled and the rails it slides over. This can extend even outside the long tube pressure vessel because losing oxygen to the vacuum is a small concern. If all of the rocket-sled techniques fail to be adaptable to lunar conditions, there is still the option of launching a rocket horizontally within the long tube pressure vessel and flying at a fixed distance from the walls. The rocket would be in orbit before the second stage leaves the pressure vessel with the first stage landing within the pressure vessel. Flying a rocket down the middle of a long tube is no more difficult than formation flying of aircraft on Earth, a demonstrated technique. It will be handled by robot pilots on Luna. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline"> One possibility for retro-rocket thrust is to have the discharge of the second stage expose separate rocket motors for landing the first stage. These rockets would have their own fuel tanks. Alternatively, the </ins>requirement to reverse rocket thrust to stop and land in the pressure vessel can be avoided. The first stage could land on rails outside of the pressure vessel by friction as the X-15 landed on rear landing gear consisting of skids.<ref>[https://www.nasa.gov/centers/armstrong/news/FactSheets/FS-052-DFRC.html NASA Armstrong Fact Sheet: X-15 Hypersonic Research Program]</ref> On the moon the landing speed would likely be in the neighborhood of 2200 meters per second <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">(5000 miles per hour) </ins>rather than the 200 miles per hour landing of the X-15. The lunar landing gear might grab the rails from above and below and brush them with actual bristles of silicon dioxide that are progressively extended from the landing gear as the ends of the bristles are worn away with the generation of silicon dioxide gas. There is certainly a wealth of possible techniques that might be used on Luna depending upon which techniques are cheapest over-all. There is no technical difficulty that will completely prevent recycling spent rocket fuel on Luna. There is only the possibility that people will not make a sufficient effort to achieve low cost, high volume launch techniques on Luna. Improvements in technology can only make lunar launches cheaper over the years. I have written what is required. If you want your grandchildren, grandnieces and grandnephews to live in space, take hold of space and make it your own. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Twenty-third, there is too much that is unknown about a SBSP system built from lunar materials. We do not know the precise lunar mineral types in their abundances by location, nor the depth to which minerals can be dug up, nor the details of how robots will do construction in space, nor the effects on the environment of Earth from operating a SBSP system, nor how far from a rectenna a person with a pacemaker must remain so the beam does not kill the person by messing up the pacemaker. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Twenty-third, there is too much that is unknown about a SBSP system built from lunar materials. We do not know the precise lunar mineral types in their abundances by location, nor the depth to which minerals can be dug up, nor the details of how robots will do construction in space, nor the effects on the environment of Earth from operating a SBSP system, nor how far from a rectenna a person with a pacemaker must remain so the beam does not kill the person by messing up the pacemaker. </div></td></tr>
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</table>Farredhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:New_moon_base_concepts&diff=115519&oldid=prevMiros1: /* More discussion */2019-04-11T09:52:01Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">More discussion</span></span></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 09:52, 11 April 2019</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l164" >Line 164:</td>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I made an addition above and corrected some typos. It was nothing that you have objected to. You seemed only interested in clarifying a definition. I will undo the addition if you object to it. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] ([[User talk:Farred|talk]]) 20:32, 30 March 2019 (GMT)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I made an addition above and corrected some typos. It was nothing that you have objected to. You seemed only interested in clarifying a definition. I will undo the addition if you object to it. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] ([[User talk:Farred|talk]]) 20:32, 30 March 2019 (GMT)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">No objections. -- [[User:Miros1|Rose/Miros]] ([[User talk:Miros1|talk]]) 10:51, 11 April 2019 (BST)</ins></div></td></tr>
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</table>Miros1https://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:New_moon_base_concepts&diff=115053&oldid=prevFarred: addition and fix typos2019-03-30T20:32:39Z<p>addition and fix typos</p>
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</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l8" >Line 8:</td>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The government authorized actual industrial activity in digging the Panama Canal. In 1903 the USA acquired rights to build a canal from Panama. It took until 1914 for the first ship to cross the isthmus by canal. The fees for use of the canal were never intended to repay the USA the capital cost of the canal. Fees just paid operational expenses. The benefit to the USA came from increased passenger and cargo traffic by ship connecting the American Atlantic coast and Pacific coast with each other and with foreign ports from which the canal shortened the voyage. On the moon, the lack of any return on investment for probably more than thirty years makes the construction of industrial infrastructure and particularly construction of an LRSTO ([[Lunar Rocket-sled to Orbit]]) very difficult for private industry to justify. The U. S. could do it if there were a will to do so. Other countries would likely be willing to join the project if the U. S. made a serious start. The USA needs to use NASA in the same way as the USA built the Panama Canal with government money. Consider a Lunar Rocket-sled to Orbit to be a public works project. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The government authorized actual industrial activity in digging the Panama Canal. In 1903 the USA acquired rights to build a canal from Panama. It took until 1914 for the first ship to cross the isthmus by canal. The fees for use of the canal were never intended to repay the USA the capital cost of the canal. Fees just paid operational expenses. The benefit to the USA came from increased passenger and cargo traffic by ship connecting the American Atlantic coast and Pacific coast with each other and with foreign ports from which the canal shortened the voyage. On the moon, the lack of any return on investment for probably more than thirty years makes the construction of industrial infrastructure and particularly construction of an LRSTO ([[Lunar Rocket-sled to Orbit]]) very difficult for private industry to justify. The U. S. could do it if there were a will to do so. Other countries would likely be willing to join the project if the U. S. made a serious start. The USA needs to use NASA in the same way as the USA built the Panama Canal with government money. Consider a Lunar Rocket-sled to Orbit to be a public works project. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Third is a real difficulty. Industry on the moon has inherent [[Geopolitics|military applications]]. The nations of the <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Peoples</del>' Republic of China, and Russia are not likely to just let the U. S. set up bases on the moon that are indistinguishable from military bases. We have already signed treaties promising that we would not use the moon for military purposes but some people would settle for nothing less than verification. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Third is a real difficulty. Industry on the moon has inherent [[Geopolitics|military applications]]. The nations of the <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">People</ins>'<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">s </ins>Republic of China, and Russia are not likely to just let the U. S. set up bases on the moon that are indistinguishable from military bases. We have already signed treaties promising that we would not use the moon for military purposes but some people would settle for nothing less than verification. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The U. S. should invite other nations to robotically observe what we would openly do in developing lunar industry in such a way that it is unmistakably nonmilitary. We should sell them electricity for their robots and allow them to share robot shelters at night. We should require similar rights of observation of any Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, or European bases. It would be best if we could cooperate on industry to the extent that we have shared ownership of some industrial facilities with other nations. International law allows nations to share the use of the oceans of Earth for transportation. We share the use of the radio broadcast spectrum. We follow treaty obligations in the way we share the ability to place satellites into orbit. For industry on the moon and low-cost launching to lunar orbit we should be able to work out something. ITER (International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor) demonstrates some international cooperation. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The U. S. should invite other nations to robotically observe what we would openly do in developing lunar industry in such a way that it is unmistakably nonmilitary. We should sell them electricity for their robots and allow them to share robot shelters at night. We should require similar rights of observation of any Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, or European bases. It would be best if we could cooperate on industry to the extent that we have shared ownership of some industrial facilities with other nations. International law allows nations to share the use of the oceans of Earth for transportation. We share the use of the radio broadcast spectrum. We follow treaty obligations in the way we share the ability to place satellites into orbit. For industry on the moon and low-cost launching to lunar orbit we should be able to work out something. ITER (International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor) demonstrates some international cooperation. </div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Thirtieth, do you have rocks in your head? The People's Republic of China is an enemy. You admit military applications (third objection) but suggest treaties with China governing the development of the moon. We need to keep potential military applications out of China's hands. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Thirtieth, do you have rocks in your head? The People's Republic of China is an enemy. You admit military applications (third objection) but suggest treaties with China governing the development of the moon. We need to keep potential military applications out of China's hands. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:If the USA could arrange the physical characteristics of the solar system and the political situation of Earth by political decree, it could develop the industrial potential of the moon without involving other nations that look at things differently than the US congress. Since we must involve other nations, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">lets </del>look at who our enemies are and what sorts of arrangements could possibly be beneficial. Who put the many trillion dollar debt on the USA? It was the US government acting under the influence of lobbyists for various organizations such as medical organizations, defense contractors, teachers' organizations, and retired persons. The list of lobbyists trying to get a piece of the federal budget is too long for this discussion but people who allow such lobbyists to control federal spending with no concern for the federal debt are the enemies of the USA. That is: US citizens are their own worst enemies. The potential financial catastrophe could be worse than anything that China is planning for the US. Exact outcomes cannot be predicted but the potential for something worse than the great depression is a reason for some of the preparations for bugging out that are seen in people preparing access to <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">non urban </del>property, learning gardening, storing essentials, and having a bug out vehicle to get to their destination by driving around traffic jams <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">off road</del>. The People's Republic of China is a problem because of their absolute insistence upon putting Taiwan under communist party control regardless of political and economic costs. It is their unifying purpose. If anyone does not agree with that they are not only kept out of political power, they risk prison. It is a case of self reinforcement of an extreme position. However, China does bow to reality to the extent that they will put off their goal until they are confidant that they can succeed. Considering the shore of Taiwan as approximately a natural fortress protected by advanced anti-ship missiles with the USA guaranteeing access to trade, the People's Republic might need wait a long time. Satellite observations can pin-point naval targets like <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">ship a born </del>invasion force and <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">those </del>that anti-ship missiles cannot knock out, submarine launched weapons that travel submerged to their target can. The high velocity canons to stop anti-ship missiles can be overwhelmed by a high number of targets and the guns can be blinded by a rain of chaff and other countermeasures such has not yet been deployed in an actual war. I cannot list all of the reasons that an invasion of Taiwan from the People's Republic is not realistic without cooperation from Taiwan or the USA failing to defend Taiwan from blockade. It is just best for China to put unification under the communist party on the back burner and agree to disallow by international agreement any orbital or lunar weapons with the potential to do significant military harm to targets on Earth. If China were to succeed in putting Taiwan under rule from the continent, it would face more difficult factional problems internally that could bring it to an end, but it might succeed in taking over Taiwan as conditions change with time. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:If the USA could arrange the physical characteristics of the solar system and the political situation of Earth by political decree, it could develop the industrial potential of the moon without involving other nations that look at things differently than the US congress. Since we must involve other nations, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">let's </ins>look at who our enemies are and what sorts of arrangements could possibly be beneficial. Who put the many trillion dollar debt on the USA? It was the US government acting under the influence of lobbyists for various organizations such as medical organizations, defense contractors, teachers' organizations, and retired persons. The list of lobbyists trying to get a piece of the federal budget is too long for this discussion but people who allow such lobbyists to control federal spending with no concern for the federal debt are the enemies of the USA. That is: US citizens are their own worst enemies. The potential financial catastrophe could be worse than anything that China is planning for the US. Exact outcomes cannot be predicted but the potential for something worse than the great depression is a reason for some of the preparations for bugging out that are seen in people preparing access to <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">nonurban </ins>property, learning gardening, storing essentials, and having a bug out vehicle to get to their destination by driving <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">off the road </ins>around traffic jams. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:It is possible for international law to be effective in outlawing <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">space-born </del>offensive weapons if nations are willing to agree to such terms with verifiability. There is plenty of wealth for everybody if we can agree upon reasonable ways of sharing it and the US federal government stops its deficit financing. The obstacles to a millennium of prosperity for humanity are economic and political. The technical problems can be handled with a reasonable international effort.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">:</ins>The People's Republic of China is a problem because of their absolute insistence upon putting Taiwan under communist party control regardless of political and economic costs. It is their unifying purpose. If anyone does not agree with that they are not only kept out of political power, they risk prison. It is a case of self<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">-</ins>reinforcement of an extreme position. However, China does bow to reality to the extent that they will put off their goal until they are confidant that they can succeed. Considering the shore of Taiwan as approximately a natural fortress protected by advanced anti-ship missiles with the USA guaranteeing access to trade, the People's Republic might need wait a long time. Satellite observations can pin-point naval targets like <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">shipborne </ins>invasion force and <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">vessels </ins>that anti-ship missiles cannot knock out, submarine launched weapons that travel submerged to their target can. The high velocity canons to stop anti-ship missiles can be overwhelmed by a high number of targets and the guns can be blinded by a rain of chaff and other countermeasures such has not yet been deployed in an actual war. I cannot list all of the reasons that an invasion of Taiwan from the People's Republic is not realistic without cooperation from Taiwan or the USA failing to defend Taiwan from blockade. It is just best for China to put unification under the communist party on the back burner and agree to disallow by international agreement any orbital or lunar weapons with the potential to do significant military harm to targets on Earth <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">or flying at altitudes of less than 7.5 miles (12,000 meters, 4,000 feet)</ins>. If China were to succeed in putting Taiwan under rule from the continent, it would face more difficult factional problems internally that could bring it to an end, but it might succeed in taking over Taiwan as conditions change with time. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">:The fact that the People's Republic expressly refuses to forego violence in taking over the governing of Taiwan indicates that they likely see the possibility that opponents to such a development might refrain from going to total war to prevent it. Total war between two modern nations, such as the United States and the People's Republic of China, would cause harm far exceeding any possible gain from winning the war. Total war is simple to understand. It is based upon the method of accounting benefit in which gaining factories, gold, weapons, or agriculture is accounted the same benefit as destroying equivalent factories, gold, weapons or agriculture of the enemy. It continues until one side or the other concedes defeat or has been completely destroyed. The most illustrative examples I can think of are from the Greek bronze age. One city fought until it had killed every man of age for military duty in the enemy city. The enemy city was taken over as booty. Women and boys of age ten and less were taken as slaves with the boys separated from their mothers. If peace were achieved with merely exchanging some piece of land or paying some money, the loosing side would be allowed to keep their weapons, wives and children. It was assumed that a free man would rather die than give up weapons, wife or children. </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">:Bronze age total war made a sad sort of sense. Modern age total war with nuclear, biological and chemical weapons would be insane.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:It is possible for international law to be effective in outlawing <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">spaceborne </ins>offensive weapons if nations are willing to agree to such terms with verifiability. There is plenty of wealth for everybody if we can agree upon reasonable ways of sharing it and the US federal government stops its deficit financing. The obstacles to a millennium of prosperity for humanity are economic and political. The technical problems can be handled with a reasonable international effort.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>-- [[User:Farred|Farred]] ([[User talk:Farred|talk]]) made last alteration on 16 December 2019, at 17:20.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>-- [[User:Farred|Farred]] ([[User talk:Farred|talk]]) made last alteration on 16 December 2019, at 17:20.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l158" >Line 158:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 161:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>--[[User:Farred|Farred]] ([[User talk:Farred|talk]]) 21:18, 22 March 2019 (GMT)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>--[[User:Farred|Farred]] ([[User talk:Farred|talk]]) 21:18, 22 March 2019 (GMT)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I made an addition above and corrected some typos. It was nothing that you have objected to. You seemed only interested in clarifying a definition. I will undo the addition if you object to it. - [[User:Farred|Farred]] ([[User talk:Farred|talk]]) 20:32, 30 March 2019 (GMT)</ins></div></td></tr>
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</table>Farredhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:New_moon_base_concepts&diff=115047&oldid=prevFarred: Alter format2019-03-22T21:49:02Z<p>Alter format</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 21:49, 22 March 2019</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l151" >Line 151:</td>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==References==</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==References==</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><references/></div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><references/></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline"> </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">==More discussion==</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>What's ITER? Maybe add to exodictionary? Also add other definitions? -- [[User:Miros1|Rose/Miros]] ([[User talk:Miros1|talk]]) 05:24, 18 March 2019 (GMT) </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>What's ITER? Maybe add to exodictionary? Also add other definitions? -- [[User:Miros1|Rose/Miros]] ([[User talk:Miros1|talk]]) 05:24, 18 March 2019 (GMT) </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>ITER was defined in parentheses after its first use in the answer to the third objection. It is an abbreviation for International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor, an international government funded program. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>ITER was defined in parentheses after its first use in the answer to the third objection. It is an abbreviation for International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor, an international government funded program. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[User:Farred|Farred]] ([[User talk:Farred|talk]]) 21:18, 22 March 2019 (GMT)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline"> </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">--</ins>[[User:Farred|Farred]] ([[User talk:Farred|talk]]) 21:18, 22 March 2019 (GMT)</div></td></tr>
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</table>Farredhttps://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:New_moon_base_concepts&diff=115045&oldid=prevFarred: define term2019-03-22T21:18:52Z<p>define term</p>
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</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l137" >Line 137:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 137:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Thirtieth, do you have rocks in your head? The People's Republic of China is an enemy. You admit military applications (third objection) but suggest treaties with China governing the development of the moon. We need to keep potential military applications out of China's hands. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Thirtieth, do you have rocks in your head? The People's Republic of China is an enemy. You admit military applications (third objection) but suggest treaties with China governing the development of the moon. We need to keep potential military applications out of China's hands. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:If the USA could arrange the physical characteristics of the solar system and the political situation of Earth by political decree, it could develop the industrial potential of the moon without involving other nations that look at things differently than the US congress. Since we must involve other nations, lets look at who our enemies are and what sorts of arrangements could possibly be beneficial. Who put the many trillion dollar debt on the USA? It was the US government acting under the influence of lobbyists for various organizations such as medical organizations, defense contractors, teachers' organizations, and retired persons. The list of lobbyists trying to get a piece of the federal budget is too long for this discussion but people who allow such lobbyists to control federal spending with no concern for the federal debt are the enemies of the USA. That is: US citizens are their own worst enemies. The potential financial catastrophe could be worse than anything that China is planning for the US. Exact outcomes cannot be predicted but the potential for something worse than the great depression is a reason for some of the preparations for bugging out that are seen in people preparing access to non urban property, learning gardening, storing essentials, and having a bug out vehicle to get to their destination by driving around traffic jams off road. The People's Republic of China is a problem because of their absolute insistence upon putting Taiwan under communist party control regardless of political and economic costs. It is their unifying purpose. If anyone does not agree with that they are not only kept out of political power, they risk prison. It is a case of self reinforcement of an extreme position. However, China does bow to reality to the extent that they will put off their goal until they are confidant that they can succeed. Considering the shore of Taiwan as approximately a natural fortress protected by advanced anti-ship missiles with the USA guaranteeing access to trade, the People's Republic might need wait a long time. Satellite observations can pin-point naval targets like ship a born invasion force and those that anti-ship missiles cannot knock out, submarine launched weapons that travel submerged to their target can. The high velocity canons to stop anti-ship missiles can be overwhelmed high number of targets and the guns can be blinded by a rain of chaff and other countermeasures such has not yet been deployed in an actual war. I cannot list all of the reasons that an invasion of Taiwan from the People's Republic is not realistic without cooperation from Taiwan or the USA failing to defend Taiwan from blockade. It is just best for China to put unification under the communist party on the back burner and agree to disallow by international agreement any orbital or lunar weapons with the potential to do significant military harm to targets on Earth. If China were to succeed in putting Taiwan under rule from the continent, it would face more difficult factional problems internally that could bring it to an end, but it might succeed in taking over Taiwan as conditions change with time. </div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:If the USA could arrange the physical characteristics of the solar system and the political situation of Earth by political decree, it could develop the industrial potential of the moon without involving other nations that look at things differently than the US congress. Since we must involve other nations, lets look at who our enemies are and what sorts of arrangements could possibly be beneficial. Who put the many trillion dollar debt on the USA? It was the US government acting under the influence of lobbyists for various organizations such as medical organizations, defense contractors, teachers' organizations, and retired persons. The list of lobbyists trying to get a piece of the federal budget is too long for this discussion but people who allow such lobbyists to control federal spending with no concern for the federal debt are the enemies of the USA. That is: US citizens are their own worst enemies. The potential financial catastrophe could be worse than anything that China is planning for the US. Exact outcomes cannot be predicted but the potential for something worse than the great depression is a reason for some of the preparations for bugging out that are seen in people preparing access to non urban property, learning gardening, storing essentials, and having a bug out vehicle to get to their destination by driving around traffic jams off road. The People's Republic of China is a problem because of their absolute insistence upon putting Taiwan under communist party control regardless of political and economic costs. It is their unifying purpose. If anyone does not agree with that they are not only kept out of political power, they risk prison. It is a case of self reinforcement of an extreme position. However, China does bow to reality to the extent that they will put off their goal until they are confidant that they can succeed. Considering the shore of Taiwan as approximately a natural fortress protected by advanced anti-ship missiles with the USA guaranteeing access to trade, the People's Republic might need wait a long time. Satellite observations can pin-point naval targets like ship a born invasion force and those that anti-ship missiles cannot knock out, submarine launched weapons that travel submerged to their target can. The high velocity canons to stop anti-ship missiles can be overwhelmed <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">by a </ins>high number of targets and the guns can be blinded by a rain of chaff and other countermeasures such has not yet been deployed in an actual war. I cannot list all of the reasons that an invasion of Taiwan from the People's Republic is not realistic without cooperation from Taiwan or the USA failing to defend Taiwan from blockade. It is just best for China to put unification under the communist party on the back burner and agree to disallow by international agreement any orbital or lunar weapons with the potential to do significant military harm to targets on Earth. If China were to succeed in putting Taiwan under rule from the continent, it would face more difficult factional problems internally that could bring it to an end, but it might succeed in taking over Taiwan as conditions change with time. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:It is possible for international law to be effective in outlawing space-born offensive weapons if nations are willing to agree to such terms with verifiability. There is plenty of wealth for everybody if we can agree upon reasonable ways of sharing it and the US federal government stops its deficit financing. The obstacles to a millennium of prosperity for humanity are economic and political. The technical problems can be handled with a reasonable international effort.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:It is possible for international law to be effective in outlawing space-born offensive weapons if nations are willing to agree to such terms with verifiability. There is plenty of wealth for everybody if we can agree upon reasonable ways of sharing it and the US federal government stops its deficit financing. The obstacles to a millennium of prosperity for humanity are economic and political. The technical problems can be handled with a reasonable international effort.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l152" >Line 152:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 152:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><references/></div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><references/></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>What's ITER? Maybe add to exodictionary? Also add other definitions? -- [[User:Miros1|Rose/Miros]] ([[User talk:Miros1|talk]]) 05:24, 18 March 2019 (GMT)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>What's ITER? Maybe add to exodictionary? Also add other definitions? -- [[User:Miros1|Rose/Miros]] ([[User talk:Miros1|talk]]) 05:24, 18 <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">March 2019 (GMT) </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline"> </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">ITER was defined in parentheses after its first use in the answer to the third objection. It is an abbreviation for International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor, an international government funded program. </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">[[User:Farred|Farred]] ([[User talk:Farred|talk]]) 21:18, 22 </ins>March 2019 (GMT)</div></td></tr>
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</table>Farred